Are You Saved?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='noncatholicname' date='Nov 17 2004, 10:16 PM'] Ipsa means what? It says... [/quote]
Ipsa is a feminine pronoun. However, it is feminine because it refers to the woman, Eve, and by extent, it refers to her offspring in a poetic way. Of course, it must be recognized that St. Jerome was a poet as well, which is why the Gospel of John contains several poems, including the Resurrection story and the opening of John.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Nov 17 2004, 10:07 PM'] Actually, our Bible says both. The Douay-Rheims uses the "she" and the New American uses "he"...in any event, the meaning is obvious. I tend to find it providential that it's so ambiguous. [/quote]
Not to de-rail the topic but, does this mean that this passage is refering to Christ, not Mary?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Nov 17 2004, 10:27 PM'] Not to de-rail the topic but, does this mean that this passage is refering to Christ, not Mary? [/quote]
Strictly speaking, it refers to Christ, but it's intereting to note the ambiguity in the translations and the way that Mary and Jesus are so intricately connected in the languages.

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Nov 17 2004, 09:27 PM'] Ipsa is a feminine pronoun. However, it is feminine because it refers to the woman, Eve, and by extent, it refers to her offspring in a poetic way. Of course, it must be recognized that St. Jerome was a poet as well, which is why the Gospel of John contains several poems, including the Resurrection story and the opening of John. [/quote]
To be precise, Ipsa is translated as "she, herself".

[FutureSoror]

[quote name='Dave' date='Nov 16 2004, 07:14 PM'] I have been saved, I am currently being saved, and I hope to be saved. [/quote]
Exactly

[Guest Aluigi]

Raph is a resident PM expert in Koine Greek and in Latin (don't try to use fast shotty tactics lookin up what a word means in the language on the internet against him )

his definition is correct, in all three (greek, hebrew, latin) the pronoun ultimately refers to the offspring

[Guest Aluigi]

we've really gotten off track here... i still have never seen a response to St. Paul's understanding of saved, being saved, and will be saved

i repeat:
[b]I have been saved[/b][i] Rom. 8:24; Eph. 2:5,8; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 3:5[/i]
[b]I am being saved[/b][i] 1 Cor. 1:18; 2 Cor. 2:15; Phil. 2:12; 1 Peter 1:9[/i]
[b]I will be saved in the end [/b]<if I persevere [i]Mt. 10:22; Mt. 24:13[/i] and work out my salvation in fear and trembling [i]Php. 2:12[/i]> [i]Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13; Mark 16:16; Acts 15:11; Rom. 5:9-10; Rom. 13:11; 1 Cor. 3:15; 1 Cor. 5:5; 2 Tim. 2:11-12; Heb. 9:28; James 5:15 [/i]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='iheartjp2' date='Nov 17 2004, 10:30 PM'] To be precise, Ipsa is translated as "she, herself". [/quote]
Hey...so we do have another classicist...

Quid agis?

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Nov 17 2004, 09:38 PM'] Hey...so we do have another classicist...

Quid agis? [/quote]
Um, I haven't gotten that far into Latin, though I can understand some, since I know more ecclesiastical Latin than I do classical. I'm a freshman in highschool, and I take Latin 1, but with a very advanced teacher whoes gotten us farther than the book would've by now!! (By the way, did you use the "Ecce Romani" series in school?)

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 17 2004, 09:36 PM'] we've really gotten off track here... i still have never seen a response to St. Paul's understanding of saved, being saved, and will be saved

i repeat:
[b]I have been saved[/b][i] Rom. 8:24; Eph. 2:5,8; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 3:5[/i]
[b]I am being saved[/b][i] 1 Cor. 1:18; 2 Cor. 2:15; Phil. 2:12; 1 Peter 1:9[/i]
[b]I will be saved in the end [/b]<if I persevere [i]Mt. 10:22; Mt. 24:13[/i] and work out my salvation in fear and trembling [i]Php. 2:12[/i]> [i]Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13; Mark 16:16; Acts 15:11; Rom. 5:9-10; Rom. 13:11; 1 Cor. 3:15; 1 Cor. 5:5; 2 Tim. 2:11-12; Heb. 9:28; James 5:15 [/i] [/quote]
Well noncatholicname, it looks as though aluigi beat me to the apologetic punch, but we can still duke it out if you're up.

Edited November 18, 2004 by iheartjp2

[Guest Aluigi]

[u][b]I have been saved[/b][/u]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ro+8&version=rhe&showtools=0"]Romans 8[/url]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Eph+2&section=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ro&NavGo=8&NavCurrentChapter=8"]Ephesians 2[/url]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=2+Tim+1&section=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=eph&NavGo=2&NavCurrentChapter=2"]2 Timothy 1[/url]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Tit+3&section=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=2ti&NavGo=1&NavCurrentChapter=1"]Titus 3[/url]

[u][b]I am being saved[/b][/u]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1+Cor+1&section=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=tit&NavGo=3&NavCurrentChapter=3"]1 Corinthians 1[/url]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=2+Cor+2&section=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=1co&NavGo=1&NavCurrentChapter=1"]2 Corinthians 2[/url]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=php+2&version=rhe&showtools=0"]Phillipians 2[/url]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1+Peter+1&section=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=php&NavGo=2&NavCurrentChapter=2"]1 Peter 1[/url]

[u][b]I will be saved in the end[/b][/u]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Mt+10&section=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=1pe&NavGo=1&NavCurrentChapter=1"]Matthew 10[/url]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Matthew+24&section=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=mt&NavGo=10&NavCurrentChapter=10"]Matthew 24[/url]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Mark+13&section=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=mt&NavGo=24&NavCurrentChapter=24"]Mark 13[/url]
[url="http://http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Mark+16&section=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=mr&NavGo=13&NavCurrentChapter=13"]Mark 16[/url]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+15&section=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=mr&NavGo=16&NavCurrentChapter=16"]Acts 15[/url]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Romans+5&section=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=15&NavCurrentChapter=15"]Romans 5[/url]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Romans+13&section=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ro&NavGo=5&NavCurrentChapter=5"]Romans 13[/url]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1+Cor+3&section=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ro&NavGo=13&NavCurrentChapter=13"]1 Corinthians 3[/url]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1+Corinthians+5&section=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=1co&NavGo=3&NavCurrentChapter=3"]1 Corinthians 5[/url]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=2+Tim+2&section=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=1co&NavGo=5&NavCurrentChapter=5"]2 Timothy 2[/url]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Heb+9&section=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=2ti&NavGo=2&NavCurrentChapter=2"]Hebrews 9[/url]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=James+5&section=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=heb&NavGo=9&NavCurrentChapter=9"]James 5[/url]

There's all the chapters in context, you can even change translations if you don't like that one

Edited November 18, 2004 by Aluigi

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='iheartjp2' date='Nov 17 2004, 10:43 PM'] Um, I haven't gotten that far into Latin, though I can understand some, since I know more ecclesiastical Latin than I do classical. I'm a freshman in highschool, and I take Latin 1, but with a very advanced teacher whoes gotten us farther than the book would've by now!! (By the way, did you use the "Ecce Romani" series in school?) [/quote]
Yes, I used Ecce Romani. I'm a sophomore in college in advanced Latin classes and I've taken a decent amount of Greek, too. Let me know if you ever need any help.

[noncatholicname]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 17 2004, 09:53 PM'] [u][b]I have been saved[/b][/u]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ro+8&version=rhe&showtools=0"]Romans 8[/url]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Eph+2§ion=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ro&NavGo=8&NavCurrentChapter=8"]Ephesians 2[/url]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=2+Tim+1§ion=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=eph&NavGo=2&NavCurrentChapter=2"]2 Timothy 1[/url]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Tit+3§ion=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=2ti&NavGo=1&NavCurrentChapter=1"]Titus 3[/url]

[u][b]I am being saved[/b][/u]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1+Cor+1§ion=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=tit&NavGo=3&NavCurrentChapter=3"]1 Corinthians 1[/url]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=2+Cor+2§ion=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=1co&NavGo=1&NavCurrentChapter=1"]2 Corinthians 2[/url]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=php+2&version=rhe&showtools=0"]Phillipians 2[/url]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1+Peter+1§ion=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=php&NavGo=2&NavCurrentChapter=2"]1 Peter 1[/url]

[u][b]I will be saved in the end[/b][/u]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Mt+10§ion=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=1pe&NavGo=1&NavCurrentChapter=1"]Matthew 10[/url]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Matthew+24§ion=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=mt&NavGo=10&NavCurrentChapter=10"]Matthew 24[/url]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Mark+13§ion=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=mt&NavGo=24&NavCurrentChapter=24"]Mark 13[/url]
[url="http://http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Mark+16§ion=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=mr&NavGo=13&NavCurrentChapter=13"]Mark 16[/url]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+15§ion=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=mr&NavGo=16&NavCurrentChapter=16"]Acts 15[/url]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Romans+5§ion=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=15&NavCurrentChapter=15"]Romans 5[/url]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Romans+13§ion=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ro&NavGo=5&NavCurrentChapter=5"]Romans 13[/url]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1+Cor+3§ion=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ro&NavGo=13&NavCurrentChapter=13"]1 Corinthians 3[/url]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1+Corinthians+5§ion=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=1co&NavGo=3&NavCurrentChapter=3"]1 Corinthians 5[/url]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=2+Tim+2§ion=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=1co&NavGo=5&NavCurrentChapter=5"]2 Timothy 2[/url]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Heb+9§ion=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=2ti&NavGo=2&NavCurrentChapter=2"]Hebrews 9[/url]
[url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=James+5§ion=0&version=rhe&new=1&oq=&NavBook=heb&NavGo=9&NavCurrentChapter=9"]James 5[/url]

There's all the chapters in context, you can even change translations if you don't like that one [/quote]
I'll have to look at this tomorrow, seeing as how you've presented the Apostle Paul as split personality. I have been saved... I am being saved...

Of course, that's what the early reformers looked at as well. Which is it? Have been saved? Or being saved? The first conclusion has to be that it cannot be both.

I'll let you chew on that tonight while I sleep.

[noncatholicname]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Nov 17 2004, 09:27 PM'] Ipsa is a feminine pronoun.  However, it is feminine because it refers to the woman, Eve, and by extent, it refers to her offspring in a poetic way.  Of course, it must be recognized that St. Jerome was a poet as well, which is why the Gospel of John contains several poems, including the Resurrection story and the opening of John. [/quote]
In other words, "she will crush your head", meaning mary is the victor over Satan and not Jesus? Because changing the pronoun in that context makes it say just that.

Edited November 18, 2004 by noncatholicname

[Brother Adam]

No it is not contradictory, you are just not willing to "see outside the box".

I have been saved: We have been born again into a new covenant. We have been liberated from the evil of orginal sin.

I am being saved: We are being liberated from evil in this world. We are "working out our salvation in fear and trembling".

I will be saved: We will be ultimately liberated from every evil and temptation if we persevere to the end.

It is your view that to be saved is to be gaurenteed heaven no matter what that is totally foriegn to the Bible and to the Jewish Christians of the first century. Salvation is not a contract as you like to think, it is not a trading of goods. It is a covenant relationship, a family ordeal.

It is indeed you, not us, who has the "chewing" to do.

[Guest Aluigi]

yeah, listen to brother adam, it is not contradictory. the verses are easily reconciled leaving us with an authentic vision of the journey of salvation.

[noncatholicname]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 17 2004, 09:34 PM'] Raph is a resident PM expert in Koine Greek and in Latin (don't try to use fast shotty tactics lookin up what a word means in the language on the internet against him )

his definition is correct, in all three (greek, hebrew, latin) the pronoun ultimately refers to the offspring [/quote]
She will crush your head... Refers to the seed? By no stretch of the imagination can one twist this to that point. In hebrew, it says "he [will] crush your head". In latin, it was changed to "she".

This doesn't take an expert in linguistics to see this.

Fast shortie tactics? Wow, how presumptuous. With this level of self righteousness, what incentive does anyone have to persevere on this site in light of how everyone that comes here is instantly assumed outclassed by your resident experts?

[Guest Aluigi]

i was talking to iheartjp2! and i only mentioned it because i've seen that used (and on occasion done it myself) where you go look up something real fast on an internet apologetics sheet that tells you what the greek or latin means... just saying Raph actually knows koine greek and latin so if you're tryin that it won't work.

read what raph said! it refers to the seed, you haveta have a little latin knowlege not only literal translation of each word but knowlege of how the language works.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='noncatholicname' date='Nov 17 2004, 11:19 PM'] In other words, "she will crush your head", meaning mary is the victor over Satan and not Jesus? Because changing the pronoun in that context makes it say just that. [/quote]
The literal meaning is "she will crush your head," but as I pointed out, the way Latin works, it would extend to her offspring.

[KnightoftheImmaculate1]

A little off tangent, but rightly so, what do you believe about the Virgin Mother of God noncatholicname??? What do you know about Catholics and devotion to Mary???