Are You Saved?

[mulls]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Nov 17 2004, 05:49 PM'] But you can always choose to sin and walk away from him. [/quote]
maybe, but it ain't happening. if it happens, He's call me back.

i've heard many a testimony about christians wandering away from the faith after receiving Christ as a child....and i mean wandered faaaaaaaar away.

but the Lord always call them back. prodigal son syle. as for myself, i don't plan on ever straying, Lord willing.

[point5]

there are also many stories of people who wandered away and died never coming back to their faith in Christ

[Guest Aluigi]

remember Peter insisting he would never betray the Lord? don't get arrogant.

for every testimony of someone wandering away and coming back, there's an unpopular story of someone who wandered away and never came back.

[KnightoftheImmaculate1]

I would say no to your vague poll. First, I would say no because the word "saved" would mean that my life has already ended and I am now with God in heaven. I wish this was true, but I am still here fighting the good fight as Paul wishes us to. Therefore I could say that if I am to continue on the path of receiving Christ's grace in His holy Sacraments, yes I will enventually enter into the beatific vision. But if I become prideful and say that I will be saved and must therefore do no more about it but sit back and watch then no, I will most likely not because I am a human being scarred with sin who relies on God's grace to preserve me not my own abilities. Do you call yourself a prophet since you know the salvific future of the countless souls who say they have recieved Jesus into their hearts but still serve two masters?? You cannot judge someone, as you are doing, until they have given their last fruits, therefore making it possible to see what has come of these fruits and to judge accordingly. You are not God and therefore cannot say who will or will not be saved, but you may say that someone is on the path to eternal salvation, struggling to become like Jesus Christ, in all their human weaknesses and thus is highly likely to share in the beatific vision. Are you saying that you yourself will never fall into sin, "Keep watch and pray that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." Matthew 26:41

[mulls]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 17 2004, 06:01 PM'] remember Peter insisting he would never betray the Lord? don't get arrogant.

for every testimony of someone wandering away and coming back, there's an unpopular story of someone who wandered away and never came back. [/quote]
wow, how dare you? it's not arrogance. it's the promise of the Lord. He sealed me with His spirit. it's for His glory.

[mulls]

by the way, we betray the Lord every day, with sin. thankfully, our salvation is not performance based, but Grace based, through our faith, producing good works.

[Guest Aluigi]

how dare I warn you about the deadly sin of pride that anyone can easily fall into??

He never said you couldn't turn away, never promised you'd never fall away. He promised that if you persevere to the end, you will be saved.

[noncatholicname]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Nov 17 2004, 04:54 PM'] God will gave us free will, we are not robots. Yuo cannot have love without freedom to choose to love. [/quote]
I get so sick and tired of this modernistic idea creeping in to the theology. Did it ever occur to anyone that your church fathers couldn't have looked at it as if we were "robots" because they simply didn't have that metaphor to use?

The metaphor that God uses is Shepherds and sheep. Not robots. The opposite of Free will in God is not necessarily "no free will". Why is this so hard for people to understand? Does God keep us or not? Does a shepherd just let his sheep wander off? NO!

Sorry for not buying into your notion of Free will.

[Guest Aluigi]

"modernist notion"

... yeah... I guess St. Thomas Aquinas is a modernist???

yes, I am a sheep. that's what Christians are called to be: sheep. obedience, humility, following the Lord. if we leave, He will chase us. but He will never force us. only nudge us. He never impedes on our free will and that is Christian Theology, nothing to do with modernism.

[Guest Aluigi]

of course we know the ECFs (who you seem to think are all discredited because of a forgery well-known to be a forgery even by the 16th century while our sophisticated history hasn't figured the rest to be forgeries) wouldn't use the analogy of a robot.

a sheep isn't a robot.

you have to act like a sheep to remain a sheep, otherwise you become a wolf.

[noncatholicname]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 17 2004, 05:23 PM'] how dare I warn you about the deadly sin of pride that anyone can easily fall into??

He never said you couldn't turn away, never promised you'd never fall away. He promised that if you persevere to the end, you will be saved. [/quote]
So you believe that a covenant is not actually a covenant? Especially when God has made many one sided royal grant promises all through scripture, not the least of which is our current covenant.

What you miss is the richness of knowing that God is totally in control of the situation at all times.

[toledo_jesus]

What would it say about God if He simply willed us to be saved regardless of what we do? If He just determines who is saved now then why would He allow some to go to Hell? It's clearly understood in the Catholic Church that we can indeed throw away the great gift God has given us. Free will allows us to either go to Heaven or go to Hell. We can choose. Without free will the whole great mess makes no sense!

[noncatholicname]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 17 2004, 05:28 PM'] "modernist notion"

... yeah... I guess St. Thomas Aquinas is a modernist???

yes, I am a sheep. that's what Christians are called to be: sheep. obedience, humility, following the Lord. if we leave, He will chase us. but He will never force us. only nudge us. He never impedes on our free will and that is Christian Theology, nothing to do with modernism. [/quote]
And a shepherd gives up? Only nudges, but how much nudging? If a shepherd never gives up on his flock, then how much does God not "give up"?

It might be your church tradition, but I believe it to be true. You find yourself staring this notion in the face, and if you just shrug and say "it cant be that God actually, actively goes after his elect when the stray" then I think you've missed an important lesson.

Luckily God will come for you. The alternative is he just let's you go. How faithful is that?

[Guest Aluigi]

covenants have requirements to both sides. God will be faithful on His side no doubt, but we are able to opt out of the covenant at any time. we're the ones not always faithful, God is always faithful to His promises.

[Guest Aluigi]

no, He actively goes out to seek what is lost. but think about the prodigal son, it wasn't till the prodigal son realized he was wrong that the father ran out and got him. it's always our choice. if the prodigal son had never come back, he would never have gotten back into the family. if after the prodigal son was back in the family, he left again and didn't come back, he would not get back into the family.

while you are within time, you can go any which way you please, but these are your choices and your consequences. choose to accept God's grace and keep up your faith till the end of your life, and you enter into eternity with God. choose to reject God's grace and do whatever you want with your life (even if ten years ago you had accepted God's grace) you enter into eternity seperated from God.

God's free gift, accept it and take care of it.

God runs after and seeks what runs away, but if you don't wanna come back, God won't force you. We're not slaves, that's Islam, we're friends of God if we do what He commands.

[noncatholicname]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Nov 17 2004, 05:43 PM'] What would it say about God if He simply willed us to be saved regardless of what we do? If He just determines who is saved now then why would He allow some to go to Hell? It's clearly understood in the Catholic Church that we can indeed throw away the great gift God has given us. Free will allows us to either go to Heaven or go to Hell. We can choose. Without free will the whole great mess makes no sense! [/quote]
It makes no sense to you, perhaps, but it does to me.

How about Adam's sin? We are born dead in Adam, and our own sin is just more dirt heaped on the grave. This is why people run in terror of unconditional election. They jump to the [i]a priori[/i] assumption that all people deserve a chance, when the bitter truth is that no one deserves a chance. People run in terror of a just and Holy God, in fear and trembling of the Sovereign Lord of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Why? Because people take a human comfort in believing that [i]they[/i] made the decision. It turns thier stomach to think that thier fate is in God's hands rather than thier own. Which, truth be told, it kind of like what you say in you saying you don't know if you are saved or not. However, God has shown through revelation in his word what makes or breaks his children.

I accept this. Why don't you? Church tradition? A tradition that says that God can do anything but wont because of [i]your[/i] free will? Why did Jesus tell us to submit to God if God doesn't want us to submit to his will?

[noncatholicname]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 17 2004, 05:48 PM'] covenants have requirements to both sides. God will be faithful on His side no doubt, but we are able to opt out of the covenant at any time. we're the ones not always faithful, God is always faithful to His promises. [/quote]
Tell me, do you even know what a royal grant covenant is?

[Guest Aluigi]

why did He need to tell us if He forces the elect to anyway? this ultra-predestination you're describing has more ties to Islam than Christianity.

[mulls]

"Let he who boats, boast in the Lord."

1 Cor 1:31


this is pride?

[Guest Aluigi]

"royal grant covenant"

never saw that in the Bible or the Church or any great Christian I've ever seen

you misunderstand the Covenant of Christ's Blood.