Are You Saved?

[ironmonk]

[quote name='noncatholicname' date='Nov 16 2004, 11:17 PM'] Do you believe that Jesus lied when he said that he shall lose none of us?

[/quote]
Only God knows who is written in the book of life. You do not know if you are. No one knows if they are saved until they go before the Lord.

Jesus told us, there are those who "believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away" (Luke 8:13)

You cannot be certain that you are saved until you make it to Heaven.


[quote]Indeed the proof of one's election is perseverance, but you do not work your perseverance.  Jesus did that on the cross.[/quote]

Wrong. Unless you say Paul lied...

[b]Phil. 2:12[/b]
So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.


[b]St. Matt 16:27 [/b][color=red]For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then [b]he will repay everyone according to his conduct[/b].[/color]

[b]St. Matt 7:21 [/b]
"[color=red]Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. [/color]


There is no assurance of salvation.

[quote]This kind of scriptural arguing goes nowhere because everyone can prooftext thier way through this.  But the entirity of scripture is the proof.[/quote]


It goes nowhere because most non-Catholics stop learning history at 1517 AD.

One faith that has lasted since 33 AD with the same teachings of faith and morals... only the Catholic Church.

No one believed once saved always saved until the last 300-400 years... Show me once saved always saved before 500 AD.

When looking at Scripture, all verses covering a topic must be looked at in the light of the Sacred Tradition since 33 AD. Christians have been writing about the meaning of the Scriptures since the first century. We didn't have the New Testament considered Scripture until 400 AD. By what authority does man have to know which books out of over 200 where the Written Word of God? Answer, by the authority given to the New Church built on Peter by Christ.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[jesussaves]

You cannot just read and see how the words are used. There's too many variables. Have you actually read those for context?

[jmjtina]

"All you need to do is to accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior,"
That acceptance will make you a "born-again Christian," with heaven guaranteed. Nothing you later might do, no sin you might commit, would exclude you from heaven.

How about a hypothetical situation?

Let's say your pastor became a born-again Christian at age fifteen. He now is 75 and for sixty years has lived an exemplary Christian life. So far as anyone knows, and so far as he himself knows, he never, in those sixty years, has committed a serious sin.

Today, while being in full possession of his faculties, he changes completely. He commits adultery, murders a stranger, robs a bank, deliberately runs over a cat with his car, shouts obscenities at passersby, and then commits suicide, cursing God as he dies unrepentant.

My question to you is this: Does your minister go to heaven or hell?

"To hell, of course."

"How can that be, since he is a born-again Christian?"

"No, he isn't."

"Yes, he is, as I told you at the start."

"No, he can't be born-again."

"Hey, this is my hypothetical! I told you he was a born-again Christian."

"No born-again Christian would do those things."

"So you mean that he fooled everyone, including himself, for sixty years? You mean he was mistaken?"

"Of course. There's no other answer."



"What you're saying is that you can't tell whether a man really is a born-again Christian until he's safely dead. It means you can't tell if you yourself are a real Christian. You might be fooling yourself, as the minister fooled himself. The conclusion is that you can't have the absolute assurance you'd like to have.

"In practice, if not in theory, you are perilously close to the Catholic understanding of salvation.

"The Catholic Church teaches that we can have a moral assurance of salvation but not an absolute assurance. We can be assured that we will go to heaven--if we remain in the state of grace. But we can have no assurance that we will persevere in such a state, much as we might want to at the moment.

"The Church teaches that since 'God wills the salvation of all men,' he gives each of us enough grace to be saved. Grace is a gift, and a gift is not forced upon the recipient. A gift can be accepted or rejected, and it can be rejected after once being accepted.

"The minister in my hypothetical once accepted grace and, on the last day of his life, rejected it, losing his salvation. He died grace-less and therefore disqualified for heaven."

In Romans 5:2 Paul writes that "we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God"--that is, we rejoice in our hope of going to heaven. This means salvation is something we hope for.

In Romans 8:24 he says, "For in this hope we are saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?" Hope concerns things that are possible but not certain, which is why the saints in heaven no longer have the virtue of hope. They don't need it. Having God, they already have everything, and there is nothing left for them to hope for.

[b]In 1 Corinthians 9:27 Paul says, "I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." Even the apostle battled earthly temptations lest he succumb to them and lose heaven.[/b]

Taken together these verses show that Paul did not teach an absolute assurance of salvation. Quite the opposite. Who was more a born-again Christian than he? Which Christians of your acquaintance have been knocked off their feet while on the road to Damascus?

[u][i]"If Paul didn't believe in an absolute assurance of salvation, why should we?"[/i][/u]

Pax.

from: [url="http://www.catholic.com/newsletters/kke_041116.asp"]Karls E-mail.....Catholic Answers[/url]"

[noncatholicname]

[quote]What does that parable mean?  The workers in the vineyard who had been toiling forever are just as worthy as those who just started toiling, because the toil to keep faith alive is what creates the mode of grace and salvation.  so if you've been keeping the commandments by grace because of your faith for a little but another has been keeping the commandments their whole life for any other reason, you will be first although you were last.[/quote]

Huh? The ones who had worked the longest were the ones grumbling. You wanna try again? None of that made sense.

Just edited to add** The messianic Jew said the same thing, only backwards. He doesn't see it as an expostion of God's grace, paying someone who only worked one hour the same as one who worked twelve.


[quote][i]St. Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians, Chapter II, Verse viii[/i]
For by grace you are saved through faith: and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God.
[/quote]

And [i]that[/i]... That what? Faith, that's what. And that not of ourselves. Faith is given us by God.

That's the reason that Paul's epistles and James' epistles jive. If faith is given by God, then the works are the Ipso facto fruits of that faith. If it's our faith, then the works are just works, and profit us nothing.

Edited November 17, 2004 by noncatholicname

[jmjtina]

"All you need to do is to accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior,"
That acceptance will make you a "born-again Christian," with heaven guaranteed. Nothing you later might do, no sin you might commit, would exclude you from heaven.

How about a hypothetical situation?

Let's say your pastor became a born-again Christian at age fifteen. He now is 75 and for sixty years has lived an exemplary Christian life. So far as anyone knows, and so far as he himself knows, he never, in those sixty years, has committed a serious sin.

Today, while being in full possession of his faculties, he changes completely. He commits adultery, murders a stranger, robs a bank, deliberately runs over a cat with his car, shouts obscenities at passersby, and then commits suicide, cursing God as he dies unrepentant.

My question to you is this: Does your minister go to heaven or hell?

"To hell, of course."

"How can that be, since he is a born-again Christian?"

"No, he isn't."

"Yes, he is, as I told you at the start."

"No, he can't be born-again."

"Hey, this is my hypothetical! I told you he was a born-again Christian."

"No born-again Christian would do those things."

"So you mean that he fooled everyone, including himself, for sixty years? You mean he was mistaken?"

"Of course. There's no other answer."



"What you're saying is that you can't tell whether a man really is a born-again Christian until he's safely dead. It means you can't tell if you yourself are a real Christian. You might be fooling yourself, as the minister fooled himself. The conclusion is that you can't have the absolute assurance you'd like to have.

"In practice, if not in theory, you are perilously close to the Catholic understanding of salvation.

"The Catholic Church teaches that we can have a moral assurance of salvation but not an absolute assurance. We can be assured that we will go to heaven--if we remain in the state of grace. But we can have no assurance that we will persevere in such a state, much as we might want to at the moment.

"The Church teaches that since 'God wills the salvation of all men,' he gives each of us enough grace to be saved. Grace is a gift, and a gift is not forced upon the recipient. A gift can be accepted or rejected, and it can be rejected after once being accepted.

"The minister in my hypothetical once accepted grace and, on the last day of his life, rejected it, losing his salvation. He died grace-less and therefore disqualified for heaven."

In Romans 5:2 Paul writes that "we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God"--that is, we rejoice in our hope of going to heaven. This means salvation is something we hope for.

In Romans 8:24 he says, "For in this hope we are saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?" Hope concerns things that are possible but not certain, which is why the saints in heaven no longer have the virtue of hope. They don't need it. Having God, they already have everything, and there is nothing left for them to hope for.

In 1 Corinthians 9:27 Paul says, "I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." Even the apostle battled earthly temptations lest he succumb to them and lose heaven.

Taken together these verses show that Paul did not teach an absolute assurance of salvation. Quite the opposite. Who was more a born-again Christian than he? Which Christians of your acquaintance have been knocked off their feet while on the road to Damascus?

"If Paul didn't believe in an absolute assurance of salvation, why should we?"

Pax.


[url="http://www.catholic.com/newsletters/kke_041116.asp"]from K. Keatings Email[/url]

thought it fit well with this thread.

[toledo_jesus]

so are we going to flood the board with the same poll over and over again?

[Guest Aluigi]

faith without works is dead. God's gift of faith is like the gift of a puppy; you have to take care of it.

[HomeTeamFamily]

it would appear so

[Guest Aluigi]

cut him some slack, computer trouble and confusion can happen to anybody. lol

you know, if everyone who was assured of their OSAS salvation stayed faithful till their death, i'd believe it. but as it stands, there are many examples of people believing they are eternally saved only to die as athiests or unrepentant sinners...

[StColette]

Well, this is better than some flooding I've seen

[noncatholicname]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Nov 16 2004, 09:53 PM'] Only God knows who is written in the book of life. You do not know if you are. No one knows if they are saved until they go before the Lord.

Jesus told us, there are those who "believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away" (Luke 8:13)

You cannot be certain that you are saved until you make it to Heaven.




Wrong. Unless you say Paul lied...

[b]Phil. 2:12[/b]
So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.


[b]St. Matt 16:27 [/b][color=red]For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then [b]he will repay everyone according to his conduct[/b].[/color]

[b]St. Matt 7:21 [/b]
"[color=red]Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. [/color]


There is no assurance of salvation.




It goes nowhere because most non-Catholics stop learning history at 1517 AD.

One faith that has lasted since 33 AD with the same teachings of faith and morals... only the Catholic Church.

No one believed once saved always saved until the last 300-400 years... Show me once saved always saved before 500 AD.

When looking at Scripture, all verses covering a topic must be looked at in the light of the Sacred Tradition since 33 AD. Christians have been writing about the meaning of the Scriptures since the first century. We didn't have the New Testament considered Scripture until 400 AD. By what authority does man have to know which books out of over 200 where the Written Word of God? Answer, by the authority given to the New Church built on Peter by Christ.


God Bless,
ironmonk [/quote]
And if "sacrad tradition" has been corrupted, as it was revealed in the 1500s? Then what?

You cannot prove that the writings of the early church fathers are what they are. The early church didn't deem them worthy of being included in the bible canon. Why? Indeed, how do we know?

My biggest objection to what you are going to say next; "It was handed down from generation to generation" is the fact that it has been shown that a forgery was passed off as the real deal in the donation of constantine. Every time I bring this up, I do so sincerely, but catholics essentially blow me off. It calls into question more than just the uninspired texts, but also the inspired ones.

[StColette]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 16 2004, 10:02 PM'] faith without works is dead. God's gift of faith is like the gift of a puppy; you have to take care of it. [/quote]
I'm about to take the seriousness away from the thread and say that this has to be the cutect analogy ever ROFL

James 2:

14 ¶ What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?
15 And if a brother or sister be naked and want daily food:
16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit?
17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.

powerful verses

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='noncatholicname' date='Nov 16 2004, 11:23 PM'] And if "sacrad tradition" has been corrupted, as it was revealed in the 1500s?  Then what?

You cannot prove that the writings of the early church fathers are what they are.  The early church didn't deem them worthy of being included in the bible canon.  Why?  Indeed, how do we know?

My biggest objection to what you are going to say next;  "It was handed down from generation to generation" is the fact that it has been shown that a forgery was passed off as the real deal in the donation of constantine.  Every time I bring this up, I do so sincerely, but catholics essentially blow me off.  It calls into question more than just the uninspired texts, but also the inspired ones. [/quote]
----->

let's just say we have faith that the Holy Spirit would not allow the word of God to be lost to His Church on earth...if for no other reason than Jesus promised the gates of Hell would not prevail, and the loss of the true texts would seem a great triumph of Satan.

Edited November 17, 2004 by toledo_jesus

[cmotherofpirl]

THis is a merged topic so the posts are probably not in order.

Edited November 17, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[Paladin D]

[quote name='noncatholicname' date='Nov 16 2004, 11:23 PM'] My biggest objection to what you are going to say next; "It was handed down from generation to generation" is the fact that it has been shown that a forgery was passed off as the real deal in the donation of constantine. [/quote]
Are you aware that non-Christians use a similar argument to disprove Sacred Scripture? They believe the Bible has been tampered with since it was first written, thus that's their excuse for not trusting the Scriptures.

[Guest Aluigi]

lol good job cmom, you confuzzled it all up... we were quite content to have it distributed across a bunch of different topics maybe we're just distributists..

anyway, it has not been proven that ECF documents are forgeries. there are probably some that bear the wrong name or something, but there's no forgeries. they've done studies and all the different copies of most Christian stuff scattered around the Christian world is pretty consistent... Christian Tradition is pretty reliable.

we believe that not only the past traditions being past down are guarded by God, but that the CURRENT interpretation and teaching of those is also protected by God. Jesus is with us till the end of time, the Spirit of Truth is here guiding the Catholic Church into all truth.

Regarding scripture: it's a good thing God (who didn't just leave the Church alone after the ressurection and all that) appeared to St. Jerome and told Him to translate the scriptures, and then cleared the way for Jerome's translation to be accepted by the Church. cuz the Vulgate gotz no errors at all. and seeing as we don't even have manuscripts nearly as far back as Jerome dealt with, it's probably more in line with the originals not our 5th century greek ones that we think do more justice to it than the Vulgate

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='noncatholicname' date='Nov 17 2004, 12:23 AM'] And if "sacrad tradition" has been corrupted, as it was revealed in the 1500s? Then what?

You cannot prove that the writings of the early church fathers are what they are. The early church didn't deem them worthy of being included in the bible canon. Why? Indeed, how do we know?

My biggest objection to what you are going to say next; "It was handed down from generation to generation" is the fact that it has been shown that a forgery was passed off as the real deal in the donation of constantine. Every time I bring this up, I do so sincerely, but catholics essentially blow me off. It calls into question more than just the uninspired texts, but also the inspired ones. [/quote]
But nobody proved anything in the 1500's. If you can't trust the Church that gave you the Scriptures you have no basis to trust ANY scripture.


"You cannot prove that the writings of the early church fathers are what they are."

And you cannot prove they are not. These are the people that gave you the canon remember? For 2000 years they have stood the test of time.

[url="http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/"]http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/[/url]

[mulls]

Ephesians 1:13

"In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory"


"heard"-- past tense
"believed"-- past tense
"sealed"-- past tense
"until"-- indicating a future event will occur. not "if."


God puts a down payment on our soul when we accept the Gospel...the Holy Spirit. It's a guarantee.

[StColette]

I Am Being Saved (present event)

1 Cor. 1:18 - for the word of the cross is folly to those perishing, but for to us who are being saved, it is the power of God. Salvation is not a one-time event. It is a process of perseverance through faith, hope and love.

2 Cor. 2:15 - for we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved. Salvation is a continual process.

Phil. 2:12 - we are working out our salvation through fear and trembling. Salvation is an ongoing process.

1 Peter 1:9 - you obtain the salvation of your souls as the outcome of your faith. Working out our salvation in fear and trembling is a lifelong process.



VIII. I Will Be Saved (future event)

Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - again, Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. Salvation is a past, present and future event (not a one-time event at an altar call).

Mark 16:16 – Jesus says whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.

Acts 15:11 - we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus.

Rom. 5:9-10 - since we are justified by His blood, we shall be saved.

Rom. 13:11 - salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. How can we be only nearer to something we already have?

1 Cor. 3:15 - he will be saved, but only as through fire.

1 Cor. 5:5 - Paul commands the Church to deliver a man to satan, that he will be saved in the day of the Lord.

2 Tim. 2:11-12 - if we endure, we shall also reign with Him. This requires endurance until the end of our lives.

Heb. 9:28 - Jesus will appear a second time to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him.

James 5:15 - the sacrament of the sick will save the sick man and the Lord will raise him up.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='mulls' date='Nov 17 2004, 02:02 AM'] Ephesians 1:13

"In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory"


"heard"-- past tense
"believed"-- past tense
"sealed"-- past tense
"until"-- indicating a future event will occur. not "if."


God puts a down payment on our soul when we accept the Gospel...the Holy Spirit. It's a guarantee. [/quote]
Actually, "until" can point to an event that might not happen.

For instance: I will buy lottery tickets until I win.

I can say this over and over again, but it doesn't mean that I will win the lottery.