Didacus Posted May 31, 2005 Posted May 31, 2005 [url="http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=10415"]http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=10415[/url] [url="http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/2001Oct/oct8bat.htm"]http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/2001Oct/oct8bat.htm[/url] [url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p36.htm"]http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p36.htm[/url] [url="http://www.australiancatholics.com.au/features/jpii-faith.html"]http://www.australiancatholics.com.au/feat...jpii-faith.html[/url] [url="http://www.truecatholic.org/nop/jp2koran.htm"]http://www.truecatholic.org/nop/jp2koran.htm[/url] I have found the context in which John-Paul II has kissed the Koran. It was during a visit from an Iraqi delegation. I would be very interested in what the 'princes of the church have to say about the event, including Cardinal Ratzinger now Pope Benedict XVI. I tried to make a poll out of this, but seems I do not have the necessary 'buttons' to make a proper poll. Maybe I am just a rookie phatmassers, but i could not make it work.
Mrvoll Posted May 31, 2005 Posted May 31, 2005 I guess I didn't make my self clear. I meant that in the one post I said about JPII kissing the Koron.
ironmonk Posted May 31, 2005 Posted May 31, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Didacus' date='May 31 2005, 08:14 AM'] [url="http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=10415"]http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=10415[/url] [url="http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/2001Oct/oct8bat.htm"]http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/2001Oct/oct8bat.htm[/url] [url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p36.htm"]http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p36.htm[/url] [url="http://www.australiancatholics.com.au/features/jpii-faith.html"]http://www.australiancatholics.com.au/feat...jpii-faith.html[/url] [url="http://www.truecatholic.org/nop/jp2koran.htm"]http://www.truecatholic.org/nop/jp2koran.htm[/url] I have found the context in which John-Paul II has kissed the Koran. It was during a visit from an Iraqi delegation. I would be very interested in what the 'princes of the church have to say about the event, including Cardinal Ratzinger now Pope Benedict XVI. I tried to make a poll out of this, but seems I do not have the necessary 'buttons' to make a proper poll. Maybe I am just a rookie phatmassers, but i could not make it work. [/quote] [b]1 Corin. 9:19 [/b] Although I am free in regard to all, I have made myself a slave to all so as to win over as many as possible. [b]20 [/b]To the Jews I became like a Jew to win over Jews; to those under the law I became like one under the law--though I myself am not under the law--to win over those under the law. [b]21 [/b][u]To those outside the law I became like one outside the law--though I am not outside God's law but within the law of Christ--to win over those outside the law.[/u] [b]22 [/b]To the weak I became weak, to win over the weak. I have become all things to all, to save at least some. [b]23 [/b]All this I do for the sake of the gospel, so that I too may have a share in it. Pope John Paul The Great did more to win muslims to Christ than anyone in the history of the world. By kissing the Quran, PJPTG showed respect to Muslims... and they listened to him about the Gospel of Christ. God Bless, ironmonk Edited May 31, 2005 by ironmonk
Cam42 Posted May 31, 2005 Posted May 31, 2005 [quote name='Didacus' date='May 31 2005, 06:14 AM'] [url="http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=10415"]http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=10415[/url] [url="http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/2001Oct/oct8bat.htm"]http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/2001Oct/oct8bat.htm[/url] [url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p36.htm"]http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p36.htm[/url] [url="http://www.australiancatholics.com.au/features/jpii-faith.html"]http://www.australiancatholics.com.au/feat...jpii-faith.html[/url] [url="http://www.truecatholic.org/nop/jp2koran.htm"]http://www.truecatholic.org/nop/jp2koran.htm[/url] I have found the context in which John-Paul II has kissed the Koran. It was during a visit from an Iraqi delegation. I would be very interested in what the 'princes of the church have to say about the event, including Cardinal Ratzinger now Pope Benedict XVI. I tried to make a poll out of this, but seems I do not have the necessary 'buttons' to make a proper poll. Maybe I am just a rookie phatmassers, but i could not make it work. [/quote] Didacus, Here is what I think. Your first link is credible. CWNews is a legitimate site, but there is nothing harmful said about the Holy Father. Your second link is not. Daily Catholic is dubious at best. They link to many schismatic groups, including the Fatima Network, the Remnant, and others. I know nothing about the third link, except to say the admin is 17 years old. Not that this matters, but I don't how much education he has. And the last link is from an anti-pope. That about sums that up. I don't know if any of the cardinals have spoken about this issue, but I would be willing to bet there is not much criticism of it out there. Cam
Phazzan Posted May 31, 2005 Posted May 31, 2005 As I understand it, the Pope apologised to Catholics for kissing the Koran, probably something he did on impulse rather than out of faith. There are other ways to show respect to Muslims other than kissing a text that denies the divinity of Christ.
Didacus Posted May 31, 2005 Author Posted May 31, 2005 [quote name='Phazzan' date='May 31 2005, 07:55 AM']As I understand it, the Pope apologised to Catholics for kissing the Koran, probably something he did on impulse rather than out of faith. There are other ways to show respect to Muslims other than kissing a text that denies the divinity of Christ.[/quote] I searched and read mnay things on this 'incident' in the last few days, and did not come accross anything where JPII apologized for kissing the Koran. You are correct in saying that there are numerous other ways to show respect. I agree that kissing the Koran was a very strong choice of gesture and I must admit I fall a little short of explanation myself. Hence why I started this thread, to see amongst others of the faith, what their thoughts where and hope to find a little light in it all. I really like the comments from the monk of iron. Personally, I think one must distinguish between kissing, and veneration. He kissed it, as a simple gesture only, but not as an act of praise. He showed respect in the hopes of bringing people closer together, not to make a scandal and anger so many people. One thing I noticed in my readings of this event, is that the muslims who witnessed the kiss said it was a show of respect and no more. The act, the context, and the understanding of those present during the kiss show nothing of devotion or worship of the Koran by JPII. He was not threatened into doing it, he was not asked to convert, he was not trying to save his life or anyone elses. He simply showed respect - granted, this respect was strongly choosen and I admit it makes me a little uncomfortable, but we need to seek awnsers and understanding behind the act and not dwell on anger, hate and mistrust.
return2truth Posted May 31, 2005 Posted May 31, 2005 (edited) [quote name='ironmonk' date='May 31 2005, 07:17 AM'][b]1 Corin. 9:19 [/b] Although I am free in regard to all, I have made myself a slave to all so as to win over as many as possible. [b]20 [/b]To the Jews I became like a Jew to win over Jews; to those under the law I became like one under the law--though I myself am not under the law--to win over those under the law. [b]21 [/b][u]To those outside the law I became like one outside the law--though I am not outside God's law but within the law of Christ--to win over those outside the law.[/u] [b]22 [/b]To the weak I became weak, to win over the weak. I have become all things to all, to save at least some. [b]23 [/b]All this I do for the sake of the gospel, so that I too may have a share in it. [/quote] Thank you so much for revealing this quote to me. I have been strugling with trying to figure out how I can best live a devout life while still remaning an active part of a world so full of sinful happenings. Edited May 31, 2005 by return2truth
thessalonian Posted May 31, 2005 Posted May 31, 2005 Well first of all I haven't seen proof that it was a Koran, though I do believe it was. Having said that I think it was ill advised, but leave God as his judge. If it was truly a sinful act then I trust that a man such as JP II apologized. However we must remember that a kiss in different cultures means different things. I have read that in the Arab world a kiss is just an acknowledgement of a gift or something like that. If that is the case, what was in a sense rather harmless caused scandal in our culture in which a kiss is a symbol of love and respect. Blessings
Aloysius Posted May 31, 2005 Posted May 31, 2005 yeah, I believe the Koran was a gift, and he was acknowledging the gift. JPII went to confession every week; and I think it is possible he was distraught over this action of his when so much scandal arose out of it and discussed it with his confessor.
Don John of Austria Posted May 31, 2005 Posted May 31, 2005 Many men died rather than kiss the Koran. Many martyrs have been made by men who would not pay homage to the religious works and idols of false religions. ACTS 25 8 As for the Gentiles who have come to believe, we sent them our decision that they [color=red]abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, [/color]from blood, from the meat of strangled animals, and from unlawful marriage." How much more that we are not to pay homage to the "holy" works of false religions. To Kiss the Koran was to spit on the Martyrs who died at the hands of the Muslims, who could have baoughttheir lives if the would have only kissed that acursed book, It insulted the martyrs who died on Crusade fighting that accursed religion, it insulted the Hospliters who fought for 400 yeaars to keep Christiandom safe, I would remind you that he was the Grand Master of that esteemed order. It was an inslt to those men and women who died converting North Africa in the time of the Romans who saw their Holy Work undone by the sword of Islamic invaders, it was an insult to the men and wemon who died by that very sword, it was an insult to the Coptics who still live under Islamic opression in Egypt and the Armenians who have suffered from Islam since its inception; it was an insult to every man or women who has ever tried to bring other men and women out of Darkness and into the light of the Catholic Faith. And finally if was an insult to Christ for whom all of thes Holy men and women suffered and continue to suffer; for whom all of those mentioned lived and died as that vile and accursed book teaches that He was but a man, and that He did not die for our sins. If that is not sacralige please tell me what then is.
Socrates Posted May 31, 2005 Posted May 31, 2005 I'm sure that was not the Holy Father's intention. What is the point of this thread anyway? Let Pope John Paul II rest in peace! (And may God bless his soul!)
Didacus Posted May 31, 2005 Author Posted May 31, 2005 Don John of Austria, You have a very pationate post. But have you considered that JPII's actions was to try and end centuries of war and hatred that he did as he did? To follow your post, all christians should take up arms right this hour and wage battles to the death against all muslims. I cannot believe such actions would be pleasing to Jesus. If Jesus was alive today, would he command an army to fight all muslims to extinction? While he was living amongst us, how many asked him to lead the Jews against the Romans? What did He reply?
CatholicCid Posted May 31, 2005 Posted May 31, 2005 Don John, you must take in respective what a kiss means... In the Arab culture, a simple thumbs up is VERY offensive. Pointing your finger at someone while they are talking is taken as a threat and only animals are supposed to be treated in that manner. I am quite sure a kiss represents only friendship... though search for Arabian Gestures and you'll probably find more answers. If we resent cultures for the wrongs they are done and never offer a sign of friendship, we can never reconcile and violence shall only continue. What about the Inquisition? Should a Catholic living in Spain be a horrendous insult? Violence only begates more violence. We must open the doors to friendship to allow peace. I also believe another Pope (His name slips me right now, he was russian I think) was said to have left the Vatican shortly after he was named Pope. While wondering in simple clothes, he went into the appartment of a dying man to give Last Rites, but ended up giving a Jewish Blessing to the man as he was Jewish. Would this be disrepectful? Or would it be a sign of respect for other Religions?
Tony Posted May 31, 2005 Posted May 31, 2005 I actually believe that picture was photoshopped just for the sake of causing controversy
Didacus Posted May 31, 2005 Author Posted May 31, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='May 31 2005, 03:16 PM']I'm sure that was not the Holy Father's intention. What is the point of this thread anyway? Let Pope John Paul II rest in peace! (And may God bless his soul!)[/quote] Sorry Socrates, that's my doing. How can you say let he be dead he who now lives with God? (purgatory aside) I was a little taken aback when I found out about this a few days ago, and just wanted to discuss it a little. More for my own benefit than anyone elses... ya, I'm kinda self-centered in that kinda of way. You know, if someone posts about JPII, you don't have to read it. And you don't have to post on EVERY thread either.
Socrates Posted May 31, 2005 Posted May 31, 2005 That's ok. The whole "Koran-kissing" thing is the standard charge brought up by extreme Traditionalists and schismatics when they want to prove Pope JPII evil, illegitimate, or heretical. Most of the people who constantly harp on this are the ones who seem looking for a reason to hate or dismiss the Pope to begin with. I myself think it quite possible the photo was faked. Anyway, I think it best that we let God, rather than ourselves, judge JPII.
Apotheoun Posted May 31, 2005 Posted May 31, 2005 This is a pointless thread. The most that can be said about this is that it was an imprudent act, but our Lord never promised that the successor of St. Peter would be prudent in all his actions.
thessalonian Posted May 31, 2005 Posted May 31, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='May 31 2005, 03:56 PM'] This is a pointless thread. The most that can be said about this is that it was an imprudent act, but our Lord never promised that the successor of St. Peter would be prudent in all his actions. [/quote] I disagree. This topic has shaken the faith of many. It must be properly understood in order to assist those whom it has scandalized. Discussion helps us to explain it to those who are not as knowledgable and are weak in their faith.
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