Didacus Posted June 2, 2005 Author Posted June 2, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jun 2 2005, 01:11 AM']The Koran worse than the first two and as bad as the third, though more subtle. would you all find that equally excusable?[/quote] I do not seek escuse, but understanding. Hence my post some few minutes back. I started this thread uncertain of right or wrong. It is not a sin to be unknowing of a fact, the sin lies in refusing to seek the truth.
Didacus Posted June 2, 2005 Author Posted June 2, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jun 2 2005, 01:13 AM'] well there we agree.[/quote] In a small island of common ground, one may find an ocean mutual understanding. I am glad we found for the least, a little island where we can meet.
Don John of Austria Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 [quote name='Didacus' date='Jun 2 2005, 01:14 AM'] I do not seek escuse, but understanding. Hence my post some few minutes back. I started this thread uncertain of right or wrong. It is not a sin to be unknowing of a fact, the sin lies in refusing to seek the truth. [/quote] It is not you who I think is trying to excuse it, it is not you who I really take issue with about this, the question was not directed somuch to you as to those who have truly tried to gloss over it. [quote]It is not a sin to be unknowing of a fact, the sin lies in refusing to seek the truth.[/quote] Agian we agree.
musturde Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 [quote name='popestpiusx' date='Jun 1 2005, 06:23 AM'] The story has no credibility. It was an attempt by one the late Holy Father's slightly overzealous apologists to make the story less objectionable. The vast majority, almost all, of his most ardent defenders, as well as numerous scholars, admit that it was in fact the Koran. That being the case, it is quite scandalous as the Koran is demonic. Countless martyrs died rather than commit any act that would imply belief or sympathy with the Mohammedans. Kissing the Koran was an act that would have saved thier lives, but what good is it to save one's life at the cost of his soul? I have little doubt that the late Holy Father’s intentions were noble enough. However, that is irrelevant. The act itself caused grave scandal. It was a bad thing to do. It was viewed as a slap in the face to countless martyrs and gave the impression to the Mohammedans that there is credibility to their 'revelation". Does it shake my faith? Not hardly. Why? Because my faith is based on the Divinely revealed truth of the Catholic Faith, not on some cult of personality surrounding the late Holy Father. In fact it had nothing to do with him as a person. Rather, my faith relied on him insofar as he possessed the full teaching authority of the Church in his capacity as Pope. Kissing the Koran was not a "Papal action", but the act of the person who happens to occupy the See of Peter. This act shakes my faith no more than the fact that Pope Alexander VI had illegitimate children does; which is to say, not at all. [/quote] I'm guessing the Catholic Church never killed infidels either. The pope is just showing respect by doing this act NOT unity of faiths but instead a unity of people in the middle east. The Holy Father was embracing Islam as a brother religion worshiping the SAME GOD. (haha I guess the Pope has MY stance on this issue then huh?). The same is a very tricky word indeed. They worship the God of Abraham in a different way than we do and there's no way they don't since they attempt to and God recieves and answers their prayers. They don't pray like we do. This is an attempt by the Pope however to bring the Christians and Muslims in the Middle East in unity instead of fighting eachother. The Koran was all dedicated to God, the writer was just very ignorant of the truth of the trinity/how God works. He had more of the idea of the Old Testament God than the new testament God. (No, please don't call me a heretic on this one, I meant the interpretation of God. I'm not going gnostic on any of you).
Don John of Austria Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 [quote]no way they don't since they attempt to and God recieves and answers their prayers.[/quote] We have been round and round on this one but you shouldn't make statments like that because you don't know that he answers there Prayers, can you show me any magisterial document that Says " God Hears and answers muslim prayers". If not then you need to stop saying that it is so. [quote] This is an attempt by the Pope however to bring the Christians and Muslims in the Middle East in unity instead of fighting eachother.[/quote] You say this like it is a Good thing, we shouldn't be unified with evil, we should be fighting it. God I hope the Pope was just trying to be repectful and not actually trying to promote unity with the enemies of Christ. [quote]The Koran was all dedicated to God, the writer was just very ignorant of the truth of the trinity/how God works. [/quote] The Koran was inspired by the Devil either a demon appeared to Mohammed and lied to Him ( which is what I think probably happened, I actually feel sorry for Mohammed) or he simply was a Lier of Extraodinary skill, which is also of the Devil. The Devil being the Father of lies and All. [quote]He had more of the idea of the Old Testament God than the new testament God. [/quote] The God of the Muslims is a Puppet master, nothing like the God of the Old Testement at all, the New Testement is actually supports that type of God more than the Old. ( not that I am saying that is it's intent).
Don John of Austria Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 And Mustarde you didn't answer my question would you feel thus if he had kissed Mein kampf or the KKK's manefesto, or the Satanic Bible?
Didacus Posted June 2, 2005 Author Posted June 2, 2005 Don, I am very glad we can agree on things, but I hope we can respectfully disgaree as well. There are several statements you make to which I disagree. [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jun 2 2005, 01:50 AM']If not then you need to stop saying that it is so. You say this like it is a Good thing, we shouldn't be unified with evil, we should be fighting it. God I hope the Pope was just trying to be repectful and not actually trying to promote unity with the enemies of Christ. [/quote] No unity with the ennemies of Christ - I agree. No being unified with evil - I agree. That muslims are evil, and that all their teachings are evil as well - I disagree. I disagree because you seem to generalize a great deal. One could turn many of your questions against yourself and ask "Where in the CCC do you identify specifically that the Koran and Muslim teachings are evil?", or "How can you prove the Koran to be unrevocably evil in every respect?". I have read several passages in the Koran, and had them explained. Many of the 'barbaric teachings' of Islam found in the Koran can have parallels drawn to equally 'barbaric' scriptures in the old testament. (please notice that barbaric is a term to designate interpretation and not truth thereof, I am trying not to sound so much as a heretic here... please remember I am French and sometimes I do struggle to find the words in english) Remember Sodom and Gomora? Did not God Himself say that if 10 just men and woman be found between the two cities, that the two cities would be spared? Can you claim to know the hearts of so many muslims, faithful to their religion onto death, and that none amongst the millions and millions of them can sum within themselves 10 just men and woman? [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jun 2 2005, 01:50 AM'] The Koran was inspired by the Devil either a demon appeared to Mohammed and lied to Him [/quote] THAT is a STRONG statement to say the least. Have you put proper thought into it? Have you reflected on its implications? For one, I cannot believe that such a fruitful religion can possibly have been inspired entirely by the devil's work and minions. No lies, hatred, ect... could endure for so long the self destructive nature of sin and evil. There must be somewhere, somehow, some truth within the Koran, which faithful's have seen and followed in some manner - have you ever looked for it? And remember, just becasue you have not found it, means in no way that it is not there. [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jun 2 2005, 01:50 AM'] The God of the Muslims is a Puppet master, [/quote] You know, that sounds very similar to atheist splurting to me similar allegations pertaining to the Papacy. Heck, I don't have to go so far, almost word for word protestants would claim the same of the thrown of StPeter. I cannot possibly see how this can be a well founded statement. [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jun 2 2005, 01:50 AM'] nothing like the God of the Old Testement at all, the New Testement is actually supports that type of God more than the Old. ( not that I am saying that is it's intent).[/quote] Ahhh, at last, we once again find agreement. In no way does the new testament contradict the old testament, and it is my firm belief that both books must be read in CONjUCTURE with each other in order to fully grasp the word of God as it was intended for us to hear. Yes, it is very clear to me that the new testament supports fully the old testament (though I would take more care in choosing my wording, the God of the old testament IS the God of the new testament... we did not change gods at this point, simpoly obtained a new understanding of Him)
musturde Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 [quote] We have been round and round on this one but you shouldn't make statments like that because you don't know that he answers there Prayers, can you show me any magisterial document that Says " God Hears and answers muslim prayers". If not then you need to stop saying that it is so.[/quote] Well it doesn't make sense that he wouldn't does it? There is also no where in the Church that says they worship a different God. Show me anywhere that contradicts my claims and provides proof for your views. From the Nosta Aetate: [b]3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting. Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.[/b] [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_council...-aetate_en.html[/url] [quote] You say this like it is a Good thing, we shouldn't be unified with evil, we should be fighting it. God I hope the Pope was just trying to be repectful and not actually trying to promote unity with the enemies of Christ.[/quote] uhh... Unifying Christians and muslims so that they don't kill eachother is a good thing. Enemies of Christ... nice one. I didn't mean it as religious unity, i meant as people. Come on now... [quote] The Koran was inspired by the Devil either a demon appeared to Mohammed and lied to Him ( which is what I think probably happened, I actually feel sorry for Mohammed) or he simply was a Lier of Extraodinary skill, which is also of the Devil. The Devil being the Father of lies and All. [/quote] A lot of Catholics believe Muhamad was a descendant of Ishmael. So would God have made this religion? Possibly, you don't know that. You're making statements up not believed by the Church. Show me the documents. [quote] The God of the Muslims is a Puppet master, nothing like the God of the Old Testement at all, the New Testement is actually supports that type of God more than the Old. ( not that I am saying that is it's intent).[/quote] Actually, it depends on where you look. The koran teaches revenge and an "eye for an eye". The NT goes against that completely.
musturde Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jun 2 2005, 01:54 AM'] And Mustarde you didn't answer my question would you feel thus if he had kissed Mein kampf or the KKK's manefesto, or the Satanic Bible? [/quote] Your going bezerk with your examples. The KKK is a hate group, do you know why and when it was founded? It's a CULT in reliance to hate. To kiss the manefesto would be stupid because we'd never even have any KKK leader talk to the Pope in the first place. The Satanic Bible is obvious because it's worship of the devil NOT the God of Abraham. If the Pope kissed the Mein Kampf it'd make him look kind of bad. Especially with all the Nazi propaganda .
MichaelFilo Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Several things : 1) We are going off topic. 2) Kissing any book of lies cannot be taken as anything good. It is parallel to kissing the Mien Kempf to promote unity between skinheads and Catholics. Equally so, it could be kissing a statue of Buddah or one of the unholy books of that damned religion. It is lies, and as Catholics, we only show respect to that of Christ, for respecting that of the Devil is contradictory to our obligation to love the Truth, and only Him. 3) The man who is the Supreme Pontiff, the Pontifex(sp?) Maximus, the servant of servants, the Holy Father, the Peterine descendant, or what have you is still a man. His office is that of the Pope. Inasmuch as that is true, he does not act from office the entire time, much like any other man who holds an office (be it a lawyer, a judge, etc.). However, it is reasonably clear the late Pope John Paul II meant to show a unity between the peoples who adhere to the falsehoods of Islam (the Mohammadeans) and Christian men. However, being a falliable man, it is very clear that no matter what the intent was, he chose an errounous manner to show his this hope for the unity between these men (and not the Faiths, for the damnable beliefs of Mohammad are to never to intermingle (since they cannot) with the Catholic Faith). 4) Islam is worship aimed at God the Father. Muslims, like other infidels, heretics, and schismatics are not united. Some do not believe that Christians worship the same God as they, so incididently, they do not worship the True God (since they will even claim we don't worship God), the only God of Abraham. The story behind Mohammad's "revelations" aren't told the same way by different people, most especially the Christians in the Middle East (they have an alternate belief as to how his lies became manifest, which can be discussed, but in a different thread, this one has already veered off-track). Whatever the story, they are not from God. God bless, Mikey
Didacus Posted June 2, 2005 Author Posted June 2, 2005 MichaelFilo, It is with a pinch of sadness that I admit your comments on JPII does hold some truth. Hope as I may I cannot come to understand with good heart the actions of the late pontif. I ask myself, should my children be watching or not, would I do the same and kiss the Koran? And the reply is no, I would not. However, by ignorance perhpaps, I insist in the disagreement on your views of muslims and their teachings. I have much to learn on that religion, perhaps a thread dedicated to this is a good idea. I think it is becoming time for the moderators to lock this current thread. Each to their own hearts will see, and make judgment on the action of JPII. A man so fruitful in inspiring leaves in his wake sentiments much too strong for any resolution to be found on any mere thread. God bless, and JPII be well with Him.
jmjtina Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 wasn't this question asked in the Q&A forum? They had said that it wasn't the Koran at all, as commonly believed, but a Christian Bible from the area.
MichaelFilo Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Didacus, it's good to talk about troubling things. Jmj, it's been brought up several times, however, too many people of considerable Church authority claim it happened. It's not a one person thing. God bless, Mikey
Didacus Posted June 2, 2005 Author Posted June 2, 2005 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Jun 2 2005, 02:09 PM']Didacus, it's good to talk about troubling things. [/quote] MichaelFilo, Yes, this is true. But one must not loose themselves with exaustion within the troubles discussed. One must step back, return to the peace known to one's self, rest and pray. I believe I have reached this point. I do not believe I will post on this thread anymore, it has been strained long enough for my taste of troubling things. If I may permit myself a final note, in thought to the muslims in case one day I find myself in the wrong within my beliefs of them: [i][font="Geneva"]For those who lost their way in life, may they find their way in God.[/font][/i] Fare thee well, all of you.
musturde Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 I still don't see it though. The Pope was a very intelligent man and the way people are picturing him is as an ignorant person who tried showing unity in a wrong way. I think the Pope must have had some logic to have done this. We know John Paul better than that. I see it as a sign of healing and that instead of burning korans (as in being bitter against their religion... im using symbolism), we embrace them. From the quote above they do indeed worship the same God.
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 regardless he shouldn't be kissing the koran. He is Christ on earth. Would Christ kiss the koran? NO. Should we judge the pope? No.
Semperviva Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 It was confirmed by the Iraqi catholic bishops that it was indeed a Koran and not a Syrian Gospel. However, along the lines of what has already been said and along the lines of 1 corin 20, it seems to me that this situation may initially seem to some to be JP2 "endorsing" Islam, since a kiss implies love, repect and approval, generally, hahaha. However, it does not seem to neccesarily follow that the Holy Father was endorsing Islam. To me I see it more symbolically, as JP2 was a very mystical man and understood the full acting person. The Koran can be seen, at least this is how I saw it, as a symbol of the Moslem man's search for God, and a kiss repsecting, loving and approving the search for God in the heart of the Moslem. The Moslem reveres this text insofar as he sees it as the command of God through Mohammed. I see this as JP2's loving affirmation of the genuine searching for God seen in the fervant devotion of thousands of Moslems (many of whom even highly revere Mary and Jesus). Also, consider the thousands of years of division, death and war between Chrsitians and Moslems. This seems to me to be his attempt to heal with a kiss rather than defend with a sword. Have we even tried to love the Moslem instead of just kill him :ph34r: ?! The purpose of JP2's actions had been proven not only to me, but to a Turkish friend, Ali, a Moslem. Talking about Mary with him, they call her Miriam, I reached into my purse to give him a Mary holy card. It turned out I only had Benedict XVI in there. So I gave him that instead. "Is this the old one?? No. Oh." Dissappointedly he accepted the picture of the new pope. I smiled seeing his disappointment. Ali had clearly seen the love of John Paul for his Moslem people and ipso facto, Ali loved and respected him in return. Anyways it just seems that when we take the action OUT of the context of the Moslem world and put it on CNN with a little 2 second blurb--out of context, it becomes JP2's endorsement of Islam, rather than of the Islamic person.
Tony Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 I just love it how people are judging someone who is in Heaven right now, go figure.. this thing has lost its point.. if it ever had one to begin with. perhaps its time to lock it
Kilroy the Ninja Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 [quote name='Tony' date='Jun 2 2005, 05:09 PM'] I just love it how people are judging someone who is in Heaven right now, go figure.. this thing has lost its point.. if it ever had one to begin with. perhaps its time to lock it [/quote] I think that's part of the problem - some people are judging who is and who is not in heaven. But regardless, it is about time to wrap this one up. Everyone has made their point, and no one agrees. It's kind of the same place we were the [i]last[/i] time I closed a thread that led to this subject. Please do not open another thread just like this one. At least wait until there's been some time for people digest the events of this year. God Bless.
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