John-Paul II, kissing the Koran

[ironmonk]

[quote name='return2truth' date='May 31 2005, 10:34 AM'] Thank you so much for revealing this quote to me. I have been strugling with trying to figure out how I can best live a devout life while still remaning an active part of a world so full of sinful happenings. [/quote]
Here is a great book online that can help....

[url="http://www.escrivaworks.org/book/the_way/contents"]http://www.escrivaworks.org/book/the_way/contents[/url]


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='May 31 2005, 02:01 PM'] I disagree. This topic has shaken the faith of many. It must be properly understood in order to assist those whom it has scandalized. Discussion helps us to explain it to those who are not as knowledgable and are weak in their faith. [/quote]
That someone's faith could be shaken by something like this, makes me wonder whether they have the supernatural gift of faith in the first place.

[crusader1234]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='May 31 2005, 04:09 PM'] That someone's faith could be shaken by something like this, makes me wonder whether they have the supernatural gift of faith in the first place. [/quote]
My thoughts exactly.

JPII was not perfect. Nobody was. I pray to God that after my death millions of people are not dissecting the minutiae of my millions of sins.

[Myles Domini]

[quote]I also believe another Pope (His name slips me right now, he was russian I think) was said to have left the Vatican shortly after he was named Pope. While wondering in simple clothes, he went into the appartment of a dying man to give Last Rites, but ended up giving a Jewish Blessing to the man as he was Jewish.
Would this be disrepectful? Or would it be a sign of respect for other Religions? [/quote]

I dont know if this story is true (I doubt it since I dont know how the Pope would know the prayers of the synagogue) but one thing is for certain. No Pontiff has ever been Russian, John Paul the Great was the first Slav to sit in Peter's See. For the past 400 years the Popes have been Italian and prior to that the majority were and if not they hailed almost without fail from the Romance countries and Germany. Only one was English, a certain Adrian. Going back before the ascendance of the Holy Roman Empire and its parent the Frankish Kingdom, again most Popes were Italian or citizens of the Roman Empire. Normally they hailed from the Western Patriarchate but they could be Oriental Romans too. Russian though? Thats unheard of.

It'd be cool though, I wonder how he'd deal with the Orthodox...?

[curtins]

he was showing respect as others said- not worshiping it or venerating it

and again theres the cross culture thing- kiss means differnent stuff etc

[toledo_jesus]

those who were forced to kiss the Qu'ran in the past did so with the express intention of rejecting their faith to save their life. that wasn't JPII's intent...so whatever.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Socrates' date='May 31 2005, 03:16 PM'] I'm sure that was not the Holy Father's intention.

What is the point of this thread anyway?

Let Pope John Paul II rest in peace! (And may God bless his soul!) [/quote]
You are probably right and I do not claim that it was< I firmly belive that JPII was trying to do his best always and that he constantlly strived to be Good and Holy. I am sure that all in all he was far Holier than I. I only responded here because it seems there is a movement here to simply dismiss this as trivial and it is not and was not Trivial.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='May 31 2005, 04:09 PM'] That someone's faith could be shaken by something like this, makes me wonder whether they have the supernatural gift of faith in the first place. [/quote]
How judgemental and non-scriptural. I have to reprimand you for saying this. It is arrogant in my view. Those who are weak in their faith have no faith? A little scripture for you.

1Cor.3
[2] I fed you with milk, not solid food; for you were not ready for it; and even yet you are not ready,

Heb.5
[12] For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need some one to teach you again the first principles of God's word. You need milk, not solid food;
[13] for every one who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a child.

Paul does not say they have no faith. But their faith is still in it's infancy and needs to grow.

What did Jesus say when the Apostles could not cast out a demon. You have no faith? No, but he did point to how weak their faith was.

Matt.17
[20] He said to them, "Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, `Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you."


1Thes.5
[14] And we exhort you, brethren, admonish the idlers, encourage the fainthearted, HELP THE WEAK, BE PATIENT WITH THEM ALL.

Faith is not an on or off switch. It is not something that we should pridefully look down upon those who are not at the level of faith we are at but we need to help build them up. I truly hope I have misunderstood your post. If I have I apologize for mine. If not I am saddened by your attitude toward those who need building up.

Blessings

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Didacus' date='May 31 2005, 03:25 PM'] Don John of Austria,

You have a very pationate post. But have you considered that JPII's actions was to try and end centuries of war and hatred that he did as he did?

To follow your post, all christians should take up arms right this hour and wage battles to the death against all muslims. I cannot believe such actions would be pleasing to Jesus.

If Jesus was alive today, would he command an army to fight all muslims to extinction? While he was living amongst us, how many asked him to lead the Jews against the Romans? What did He reply? [/quote]
Jesus is among us today, and he is constantly insulted by Muslims. Christ came as the Prince of Peace but not Mans Peace, Christ Peace. Mans Peace is the Evil Peace, John Paul the Second was a man horrified by war, and he tried to stop it wherever he could but that doesn't mean that was always right. I believe firmly that Islam is Evil, we should not tolerate evil, we should destroy it. We are counciled not to try and over come Evil with Evil and I do not deny it, but a virtuous war is not Evil but Meritorious. It is not virtuous to end a war when it is not finished.


[quote]If Jesus was alive today, would he command an army to fight all muslims to extinction? [/quote] You do not seem to understand Christianity at all, the Christian mission is to do just that, to render all the world Christian, to destroy, paganism and heresy everywhere to bring the Good news to everyone everywhere. However Islam also has a misssin to spread the domination of that vile Faith everwhere to all people. The Jews and the Romans are a completly dissimular case, the Jews where being given the final revelation and the Lamb had to be slaughtered for the atonment of our sins, further Christ had use for the Roman Empire, as it was to be the instrument of the conversion of the West, Islam is not a secular state, it is a religion founded by the Devil to confuse and decieve people. No the Cases are not analgous at all. If you want to have an analogy between Roman and Islam lets put it like this The Pope kissing the Koran was the Equivelent of The Pope Worshiping a Statue of Caligula, that would be analgous, and you know what if the Early Christians had been willing to do that they wouldn't have been fed to lions and tortured to death in the arena.

And to answer your statement I think a Crusade, write now would be a very good thing.

[CatholicCid]

[quote]You do not seem to understand Christianity at all, the Christian mission is to do just that, to render all the world Christian, to destroy, paganism and heresy everywhere to bring the Good news to everyone everywhere.[/quote]

How would destroying those who are pagans, those who spread heresy bring any good? Is not the Christian Message that Christ brings salvation for all? Murdering those who do not believe in this denies them any chance to be converted or to find Christ.
If you destroy them, is not the message your showing All Against Us Must Die. How will this compel those to truly try and find Christ?
If we rid the world of Heresy by eliminating those who speak it... It's gonna be a pretty lonely place.
But if we preach to rid the Heresy by showing the Truth to the heretics... We can reach the same end without a drop of blood.

What you are preaching, to spread Christianity, is the same thing you say you hate, the spread of Islam through domination.

Edited May 31, 2005 by CatholicCid

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='CatholicCid' date='May 31 2005, 06:26 PM']
How would destroying those who are pagans, those who spread heresy bring any good? Is not the Christian Message that Christ brings salvation for all? Murdering those who do not believe in this denies them any chance to be converted or to find Christ.
If you destroy them, is not the message your showing All Against Us Must Die. How will this compel those to truly try and find Christ?
If we rid the world of Heresy by eliminating those who speak it... It's gonna be a pretty lonely place.
But if we preach to rid the Heresy by showing the Truth to the heretics... We can reach the same end without a drop of blood.

What you are preaching, to spread Christianity, is the same thing you say you hate, the spread of Islam through domination. [/quote]
well, nobody's gonna kill any muslims. They'll come to Christianity on their own or they'll go to Hell. Maybe not even that if they are ignorant.

here's a nice tangent, is anyone else tired of never hearing about Hell and how a lot of folks go there?

[thessalonian]

[quote name='crusader1234' date='May 31 2005, 04:13 PM'] My thoughts exactly.

JPII was not perfect. Nobody was. I pray to God that after my death millions of people are not dissecting the minutiae of my millions of sins. [/quote]
Ditto my post to Apotheoun.

[lil bull 04]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='May 31 2005, 07:17 AM']


Pope John Paul The Great did more to win muslims to Christ than anyone in the history of the world.

By kissing the Quran, PJPTG showed respect to Muslims... and they listened to him about the Gospel of Christ.

God Bless,
ironmonk [/quote]
i agree

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='May 31 2005, 03:11 PM'] How judgemental and non-scriptural. I have to reprimand you for saying this. It is arrogant in my view. Those who are weak in their faith have no faith?

[. . .] [/quote]
No action of any man, including the Pope, could make me question the gift of faith I have received from God.

[Q the Ninja]

The question should be more like, "Should a Pope kiss the Koran."

It's the action we should be curious about, not the person.

I'm curious, it may come up one day where I'll have to kiss the Koran.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='May 31 2005, 08:07 PM'] No action of any man, including the Pope, could make me question the gift of faith I have received from God. [/quote]
So the second you came to know Christ you had the faith? You believe in OSAS such that it is not possible for you to loose your faith due to trial? Presumptoin? Do not judge other's faith based on your own is my point. Do not judge other's stuggles based on your own.

Edited June 1, 2005 by thessalonian

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='May 31 2005, 06:31 PM'] So the second you came to know Christ you had the faith?  You believe in OSAS such that it is not possible for you to loose your faith due to trial?  Presumptoin?  Do not judge other's faith based on your own is my point.  Do not judge other's stuggles based on your own. [/quote]
My point is simply this: I will not allow the actions of any other man, whether it is a Pope who kisses the Qu'ran, or a priest who molests a child, to separate me from God. It is not the sin of presumption to point out that faith and doubt cannot simultaneously subsist in a man; instead, it is simply an act of assent to a dogma of the Church, for as Venerable John Cardinal Newman said, "It is, then, perfectly true, that the Church does not allow her children to entertain any doubt about her teaching; and that, first of all, simply for this reason, because they are Catholics only while they have faith, and faith is incompatible with doubt. No one can be a Catholic without a simple faith, that what the Church declares in God's name, is God's Word, and therefore true. A man must simply believe that the Church is the oracle of God; he must be as certain of her mission, as he is of the mission of the Apostles. Now would any one ever call him certain that the Apostles came from God, if, after professing his certainty, he added, that, perhaps he might have reason to doubt one day about their mission? Such an anticipation would be a real, though latent, doubt, betraying that he was not certain of it at present. A person who says, [i]'I believe just at this moment, but perhaps I am excited without knowing it, and I cannot answer for myself, that I shall believe tomorrow[/i],' does not believe now." [Venerable John Cardinal Newman, [u]Discourses Addressed to Mixed Congregations[/u], page 215]

[Cam42]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='May 31 2005, 04:06 PM'] Here is a great book online that can help....

[url="http://www.escrivaworks.org/book/the_way/contents"]http://www.escrivaworks.org/book/the_way/contents[/url]


God Bless,
ironmonk [/quote]
I agree....anything by the Founder is a good thing.

Try The Furrow and the Forge as well.....

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 31 2005, 05:07 PM'] Many men died rather than kiss the Koran. Many martyrs have been made by men who would not pay homage to the religious works and idols of false religions.


ACTS 25 8
As for the Gentiles who have come to believe, we sent them our decision that they [color=red]abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, [/color]from blood, from the meat of strangled animals, and from unlawful marriage."

How much more that we are not to pay homage to the "holy" works of false religions. To Kiss the Koran was to spit on the Martyrs who died at the hands of the Muslims, who could have baoughttheir lives if the would have only kissed that acursed book, It insulted the martyrs who died on Crusade fighting that accursed religion, it insulted the Hospliters who fought for 400 yeaars to keep Christiandom safe, I would remind you that he was the Grand Master of that esteemed order. It was an inslt to those men and women who died converting North Africa in the time of the Romans who saw their Holy Work undone by the sword of Islamic invaders, it was an insult to the men and wemon who died by that very sword, it was an insult to the Coptics who still live under Islamic opression in Egypt and the Armenians who have suffered from Islam since its inception; it was an insult to every man or women who has ever tried to bring other men and women out of Darkness and into the light of the Catholic Faith. And finally if was an insult to Christ for whom all of thes Holy men and women suffered and continue to suffer; for whom all of those mentioned lived and died as that vile and accursed book teaches that He was but a man, and that He did not die for our sins. If that is not sacralige please tell me what then is. [/quote]
Don nobody was threatening to martyr the pope, he did it as a sign of respect.
Not everybody adheres to middle class America's cultural standards. Ocassionally it would profit us to set outside our little boxes and pay sttention to the rest of the world. The Holy Father did that.

[thessalonian]

Apotheon,

No, your point is to judge other's faith and struggles. To look down upon those who are not at the same point as you. To smugly say that this thread is pointless because it causes you no difficulty. This rather than to help others with their difficulties and build them up. I've given scripture to support that there are levels of faith and levels of struggles. I am done. You may have the last word.

Edited June 1, 2005 by thessalonian