John-Paul II, kissing the Koran

[philothea]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='May 31 2005, 08:10 PM'] The question should be more like, "Should a Pope kiss the Koran."

It's the action we should be curious about, not the person.

I'm curious, it may come up one day where I'll have to kiss the Koran. [/quote]
It's good to know that some of us are ambitious!

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='May 31 2005, 07:58 PM'] Apotheon,

No, your point is to judge other's faith and struggles. To look down upon those who are not at the same point as you. To smugly say that this thread is pointless because it causes you no difficulty. This rather than to help others with their difficulties and build them up. I've given scripture to support that there are levels of faith and levels of struggles. I am done. You may have the last word. [/quote]
I don't know when God made you privy to the secret intentions of my heart, but I bow before your infallible insight.

God bless,
Todd

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='May 31 2005, 10:05 PM'] I don't know when God made you privy to the secret intentions of my heart, but I bow before your infallible insight.

God bless,
Todd [/quote]

"That someone's faith could be shaken by something like this, makes me wonder whether they have the supernatural gift of faith in the first place."

Sigh.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='May 31 2005, 09:30 PM']Not everybody adheres to middle class America's cultural standards. [/quote]
Wow. Don John has never ever been accused of adhereing to middle class American anything.

:confused:

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='CatholicCid' date='May 31 2005, 05:26 PM']
How would destroying those who are pagans, those who spread heresy bring any good? Is not the Christian Message that Christ brings salvation for all? Murdering those who do not believe in this denies them any chance to be converted or to find Christ.
If you destroy them, is not the message your showing All Against Us Must Die. How will this compel those to truly try and find Christ?
If we rid the world of Heresy by eliminating those who speak it... It's gonna be a pretty lonely place.
But if we preach to rid the Heresy by showing the Truth to the heretics... We can reach the same end without a drop of blood.

What you are preaching, to spread Christianity, is the same thing you say you hate, the spread of Islam through domination. [/quote]
I said the mission of Christianity was to destroy all other religins, I didn't say it necessarly be through the anniallation of all of those people. Conversion is of course always the best option. [quote]Murdering those who do not believe in this denies them any chance to be converted or to find Christ.[/quote] Certianly no one talked about murder killing in Battle is not murder, not if done with right intention. I have quoted the Parable of the King who because of the mistreatment of his servants sends out his troops to destroy the cities and slay the people who have mistreated the servants, while the King is God, it has also been interpreted since the early Fathers to also be the Church. Of aourse all agianst Christ will die, they will die for all eternity, yet we letthem spread and massacre Christians, and enslave them, and make Christian boys Eunachs and make Christian girls sex slaves, and we allow them to take the baptised infants and raise them to deny Christ, and I do not speak of 400 years ago but today in Africa.
I will leave you a quote by Saint Benard of Clairvaux.
"[color=blue]BUT THE KNIGHTS OF CHRIST may safely fight the battles of their Lord, fearing neither sin if they smite the enemy, nor danger
at their own death; since to inflict death or to die for Christ is no sin, but rather, an abundant claim to glory. In the first case one gains
for Christ, and in the second one gains Christ himself. The Lord freely accepts the death of the foe who has offended him, and yet
more freely gives himself for the consolation of his fallen knight.


Neither does he bear the sword in vain, for he is God's minister, for the punishment of evildoers and for the
praise of the good. If he kills an evildoer, he is not a mankiller, but, if I may so put it, a killer of evil. He is evidently the avenger of
Christ towards evildoers and he is rightly considered a defender of Christians. Should he be killed himself, we know that he has not
perished, but has come safely into port. When he inflicts death it is to Christ's profit, and when he suffers death, it is for his own gain.
The Christian glories in the death of the pagan, because Christ is glorified; while the death of the Christian gives occasion for the King
to show his liberality in the rewarding of his knight. In the one case the just shall rejoice when he sees justice done, and in the other
man shall say, truly there is a reward for the just; truly it is God who judges the earth.

I do not mean to say that the pagans are to be slaughtered when there is any other way to prevent them from harassing and
persecuting the faithful, but only that it now seems better to destroy them than that the rod of sinners be lifted over the lot of the just,
and the righteous perhaps put forth their hands unto iniquity."[/color]

Amazingly he is a saint and none of his writings have ever been condemned somthing to think about?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='May 31 2005, 04:38 PM'] those who were forced to kiss the Qu'ran in the past did so with the express intention of rejecting their faith to save their life. that wasn't JPII's intent...so whatever. [/quote]
That is why it was insulting to them.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='CatholicCid' date='May 31 2005, 03:25 PM'] Don John, you must take in respective what a kiss means...
In the Arab culture, a simple thumbs up is VERY offensive.
Pointing your finger at someone while they are talking is taken as a threat and only animals are supposed to be treated in that manner.

I am quite sure a kiss represents only friendship... though search for Arabian Gestures and you'll probably find more answers.

If we resent cultures for the wrongs they are done and never offer a sign of friendship, we can never reconcile and violence shall only continue.
What about the Inquisition? Should a Catholic living in Spain be a horrendous insult?
Violence only begates more violence. We must open the doors to friendship to allow peace.

I also believe another Pope (His name slips me right now, he was russian I think) was said to have left the Vatican shortly after he was named Pope. While wondering in simple clothes, he went into the appartment of a dying man to give Last Rites, but ended up giving a Jewish Blessing to the man as he was Jewish.
Would this be disrepectful? Or would it be a sign of respect for other Religions? [/quote]
[quote]What about the Inquisition?[/quote] What about it the Inquisition was a good and holy thing. What are you saying?


[quote]Would this be disrepectful? Or would it be a sign of respect for other Religions?[/quote] Well the Jews are a very special case they have an actual revelation. However other than them no other religion deserves our respect they are all products of the Father of Lies.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='curtins' date='May 31 2005, 04:28 PM'] he was showing respect as others said- not worshiping it or venerating it

and again theres the cross culture thing- kiss means differnent stuff etc [/quote]
You see here is the thing, Kissing the Koran has very specific cultural meaning, it was used as a symbol of the renunciation of the Faith, there is nothing Cross cultural about that, it is a historical fact.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='May 31 2005, 07:17 AM']

Pope John Paul The Great did more to win muslims to Christ than anyone in the history of the world.

By kissing the Quran, PJPTG showed respect to Muslims... and they listened to him about the Gospel of Christ.

God Bless,
ironmonk [/quote]
Do you have any statisics on that, perhaps a percentage of Islamic conversions, to Catholicism compared to the numbers in previous generations? Or are you just blowing wind.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='May 31 2005, 09:30 PM'] Don nobody was threatening to martyr the pope, he did it as a sign of respect.
Not everybody adheres to middle class America's cultural standards. Ocassionally it would profit us to set outside our little boxes and pay sttention to the rest of the world. The Holy Father did that. [/quote]
And the fact that he showed respect to the Persecuter of Christ in effect showing resprect to devilry doesn't bother you? Or are you saying that Islam is not of the Devil that it is a true revelation, you can't have it both ways, it is either the Truth or a lie, if a Lie then it serves Satan, if the Truth, well then we are all geniuses.


Oh first I'm not middle class, and second when did American middle class values stop being the simpiring reletivism I see more and more, even I am afriad on Phatmass.

[DemonSlayer]

From what I read somewhere (can't remember where), he was actually with the Chaldean archbishop and not a Mulsim cleric, and it was a Bible not a koran.

Edited June 1, 2005 by DemonSlayer

[cmotherofpirl]

I read that as well Demonslayer, but everyone insists it was a Koran.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Jun 1 2005, 06:46 AM'] I read that as well Demonslayer, but everyone insists it was a Koran. [/quote]
The story has no credibility. It was an attempt by one the late Holy Father's slightly overzealous apologists to make the story less objectionable. The vast majority, almost all, of his most ardent defenders, as well as numerous scholars, admit that it was in fact the Koran. That being the case, it is quite scandalous as the Koran is demonic. Countless martyrs died rather than commit any act that would imply belief or sympathy with the Mohammedans. Kissing the Koran was an act that would have saved thier lives, but what good is it to save one's life at the cost of his soul?

I have little doubt that the late Holy Father’s intentions were noble enough. However, that is irrelevant. The act itself caused grave scandal. It was a bad thing to do. It was viewed as a slap in the face to countless martyrs and gave the impression to the Mohammedans that there is credibility to their 'revelation".

Does it shake my faith? Not hardly. Why? Because my faith is based on the Divinely revealed truth of the Catholic Faith, not on some cult of personality surrounding the late Holy Father. In fact it had nothing to do with him as a person. Rather, my faith relied on him insofar as he possessed the full teaching authority of the Church in his capacity as Pope. Kissing the Koran was not a "Papal action", but the act of the person who happens to occupy the See of Peter. This act shakes my faith no more than the fact that Pope Alexander VI had illegitimate children does; which is to say, not at all.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

i heard that he actually kissed the gospel... but everyone thought it was the koran

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[img]http://www.sspx.org/images/PopeJPII/PopekissingKoran.jpg[/img]

[Mateo el Feo]

Well put, popestpiusx.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

??

[Tony]

lets say for a second that it was the Koran, who are we to judge the Pope of all people for his actions? Isnt there a rule on Phamtass against just that even?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

It is not for us to judge Pope John Paul II Only God can so judge him,
—the Pope has no superior on earth —

[Don John of Austria]

The fact that the Pope is the Supreme Authority doesn't automaticly preclude him from ever doing anything Wrong nor from Censur for it, thats why even the Pope as to go to Confession.