Don John of Austria Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 (edited) I find it interesting that no one has any substantive responses to my previous post (from last night). Why is that? Why are we going to the " you can't correct the Pope" arguement is it that people have finally admited thatthere was something wrong with the act, or justthatthey can't come up with a good reason why it wasn't. Edited June 2, 2005 by Don John of Austria
Tony Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 I dont think it ever happened to begin with, I think that was doctored
Tony Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 the real issue of this all is not trying to correct the pope, because we cant, but if you have never ever sinned, go ahead there and throw the first stone
popestpiusx Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 [quote name='Tony' date='Jun 1 2005, 11:17 PM'] I dont think it ever happened to begin with, I think that was doctored [/quote] That's absurd. No credible source has offered such an explanation. It happened. It was bad. To admit that is not to judge the Pope anymore than admiting that Pope Alexander VI's extracurricular activities were bad would be judging him. It is the act itself that is being judged, not the culpability for said act, nor his eternal fate. Furthermore, as I said before, it is not even a Papal act that is being judged, but an act by the person who occupies the See of Peter. There is a very clear distinction.
popestpiusx Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 [quote name='Tony' date='Jun 1 2005, 11:27 PM'] the real issue of this all is not trying to correct the pope, because we cant, but if you have never ever sinned, go ahead there and throw the first stone [/quote] If that is the basis for correction then we are rendered unable to point to any evil in the world, lest we be guilty of hypocrisy.
Don John of Austria Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 (edited) [quote name='popestpiusx' date='Jun 1 2005, 10:35 PM'] If that is the basis for correction then we are rendered unable to point to any evil in the world, lest we be guilty of hypocrisy. [/quote] I guess according to these guys, Admonishing Sinners isn't a Spiritual Work of Mercy but hypocracy. Edited June 2, 2005 by Don John of Austria
popestpiusx Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jun 1 2005, 11:43 PM'] I guess according to these guys, Admonishing Sinners isn't a Spiritual Work of Mercy but hypocracy. [/quote] That seems to be the case.
Krush2k2 Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Many martyrs died for rejecting the Koran because the culture they lived in didnt hold any unity for different religions, for them it was more like kiss the Koran or die meaning symbolically by kissing it they were pledging allegiance, whereas in this culture kissing it like the pope did was basically showing respect for the Muslim leader. A kiss from the pope was not a rarity, just like shaking the hand of the enemy, doesnt mean he was pledging loyalty to them.
Don John of Austria Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 [quote name='Tony' date='Jun 2 2005, 12:00 AM'] God forbid I quote what Jesus taught [/quote] Oh you mean like-- Luke 10 10 Whatever town you enter and they do not receive you, go out into the streets and say, 11 'The dust of your town that clings to our feet, even that we shake off against you.' Yet know this: the kingdom of God is at hand. 12 I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom on that day than for that town. Yeah God forbid we do as Jesus taught.
Don John of Austria Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 [quote name='Krush2k2' date='Jun 2 2005, 12:20 AM'] Many martyrs died for rejecting the Koran because the culture they lived in didnt hold any unity for different religions, for them it was more like kiss the Koran or die meaning symbolically by kissing it they were pledging allegiance, whereas in this culture kissing it like the pope did was basically showing respect for the Muslim leader. A kiss from the pope was not a rarity, just like shaking the hand of the enemy, doesnt mean he was pledging loyalty to them. [/quote] We still don't hold any unity with Islam, Islam is evil, it is a religion of Lies, therefore we can have no unity with it.
Didacus Posted June 2, 2005 Author Posted June 2, 2005 [quote name='Krush2k2' date='Jun 2 2005, 12:20 AM']Many martyrs died for rejecting the Koran because the culture they lived in didnt hold any unity for different religions, for them it was more like kiss the Koran or die meaning symbolically by kissing it they were pledging allegiance, whereas in this culture kissing it like the pope did was basically showing respect for the Muslim leader. A kiss from the pope was not a rarity, just like shaking the hand of the enemy, doesnt mean he was pledging loyalty to them.[/quote] You speak well krush, you speak well. I did not mean this thread to antagonise anyone against one or other. I hold my beliefs dear, and my faith is strong, but I wish not the path this thread has taken. John Paul II kissing the Koran does not shake my faith, it only calls me to question it a little more - that is one of the finest things he did was to call others to question their faith, is it not? We should not look to this act and aim to judge, nor curse, nor claim truth, but to seek the reason behind it, look for wisdom in it's rightcheouness or it's wrong or both. Not look to say "this is wrong' or 'this is the way', the only one to whom we should look to for that is He who was our Lord, who still remains our Lord - let's not loose sight of that fact. Personally, I say: Remember the martyrs and their dedication to faith, hold their examples within your lives and never sway just as they have never swayed. See that to reach towards others with a hand or kiss is always better than to reach to them with a sword or hatred. And know the difference between, and when each or the other should be chosen as the correct choice. And should you fail, remember that He who knew your name before you where even conceived, will not hold upon you your sins eternally, and regardless your mistakes there is a place for you by His side, as there is for John Paul II, pope, magnus, simple priest or common man...
Don John of Austria Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 [quote]And should you fail, remember that He who knew your name before you where even conceived, will not hold upon you your sins eternally, and regardless your mistakes there is a place for you by His side, as there is for John Paul II, pope, magnus, simple priest or common man... [/quote] Oh he might, he might indeed, that is why there is a Hell after all.
Don John of Austria Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 [quote]See that to reach towards others with a hand or kiss is always better than to reach to them with a sword or hatred. And know the difference between, and when each or the other should be chosen as the correct choice.[/quote] It is not always better, there is a time for war and sometimes that is the most moral Choice.
Didacus Posted June 2, 2005 Author Posted June 2, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jun 2 2005, 12:43 AM'] Oh he might, he might indeed, that is why there is a Hell after all. [/quote] Ah yes, there is a Hell, and Hell burns hot. But the Lord does hot hold to Hell those who repent their sins, or hold those to Hell who have made simple mistakes. It takes far far more than mere mistake to earn Hell, from the little i know, I know that much!
Didacus Posted June 2, 2005 Author Posted June 2, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jun 2 2005, 12:45 AM'] It is not always better, there is a time for war and sometimes that is the most moral Choice.[/quote] I agree, there is at times, a call to war. But this call to war is a somber call that should be heeded as the last (if not one of the last) resorts within this imperfect world. Maybe 'better' might not have been the correct term, maybe 'preferable' might have been more appropriate. I do make mistakes... heck, more than my share believe me.
Don John of Austria Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 [quote name='Didacus' date='Jun 2 2005, 01:02 AM'] Ah yes, there is a Hell, and Hell burns hot. But the Lord does hot hold to Hell those who repent their sins, or hold those to Hell who have made simple mistakes. It takes far far more than mere mistake to earn Hell, from the little i know, I know that much! [/quote] Then you know more than I or the Church for niether She nor I claim to know who does and does not go to Hell, I do not know who has and has not truly repented nor even if I have truly repented, And some " mistakes" are indeed grieves sins.
Don John of Austria Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Let me ask all of you who say that this was just a poor judgement or not even that a simple question. If JPII had kissed Mein Kampf or the KKK's Manefesto, or the Satanic Bible would you be as equally understanding. The Koran worse than the first two and as bad as the third, though more subtle. would you all find that equally excusable?
Didacus Posted June 2, 2005 Author Posted June 2, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jun 2 2005, 01:06 AM']Then you know more than I or the Church for niether She nor I claim to know who does and does not go to Hell, I do not know who has and has not truly repented nor even if I have truly repented, And some " mistakes" are indeed grieves sins.[/quote] Then we depart in definitions I do believe, little more. I need not to know who repented, only to know that those who do are forgiven (what would be the sacrament of forgiveness (sacrement du pardon) then, or final rights? or absolution?) As for mistakes being sins... The difference between us is simply the definition of what is a sin, and what is a mistake. One thing for certain, I cannot believe in a God that would dam his followers for an accident that constitues a mistake; like turning left when one should have turned right.
Don John of Austria Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 [quote name='Didacus' date='Jun 2 2005, 01:11 AM'] Then we depart in definitions I do believe, little more. I need not to know who repented, only to know that those who do are forgiven (what would be the sacrament of forgiveness (sacrement du pardon) then, or final rights? or absolution?) As for mistakes being sins... The difference between us is simply the definition of what is a sin, and what is a mistake. One thing for certain, I cannot believe in a God that would dam his followers for an accident that constitues a mistake; like turning left when one should have turned right. [/quote] [quote]One thing for certain, I cannot believe in a God that would dam his followers for an accident that constitues a mistake; like turning left when one should have turned right. [/quote] well there we agree.
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