Don John of Austria Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 [quote name='toledo_jesus' date='May 31 2005, 04:38 PM'] those who were forced to kiss the Qu'ran in the past did so with the express intention of rejecting their faith to save their life. that wasn't JPII's intent...so whatever. [/quote] That is why it was insulting to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 [quote name='CatholicCid' date='May 31 2005, 03:25 PM'] Don John, you must take in respective what a kiss means... In the Arab culture, a simple thumbs up is VERY offensive. Pointing your finger at someone while they are talking is taken as a threat and only animals are supposed to be treated in that manner. I am quite sure a kiss represents only friendship... though search for Arabian Gestures and you'll probably find more answers. If we resent cultures for the wrongs they are done and never offer a sign of friendship, we can never reconcile and violence shall only continue. What about the Inquisition? Should a Catholic living in Spain be a horrendous insult? Violence only begates more violence. We must open the doors to friendship to allow peace. I also believe another Pope (His name slips me right now, he was russian I think) was said to have left the Vatican shortly after he was named Pope. While wondering in simple clothes, he went into the appartment of a dying man to give Last Rites, but ended up giving a Jewish Blessing to the man as he was Jewish. Would this be disrepectful? Or would it be a sign of respect for other Religions? [/quote] [quote]What about the Inquisition?[/quote] What about it the Inquisition was a good and holy thing. What are you saying? [quote]Would this be disrepectful? Or would it be a sign of respect for other Religions?[/quote] Well the Jews are a very special case they have an actual revelation. However other than them no other religion deserves our respect they are all products of the Father of Lies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 [quote name='curtins' date='May 31 2005, 04:28 PM'] he was showing respect as others said- not worshiping it or venerating it and again theres the cross culture thing- kiss means differnent stuff etc [/quote] You see here is the thing, Kissing the Koran has very specific cultural meaning, it was used as a symbol of the renunciation of the Faith, there is nothing Cross cultural about that, it is a historical fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 [quote name='ironmonk' date='May 31 2005, 07:17 AM'] Pope John Paul The Great did more to win muslims to Christ than anyone in the history of the world. By kissing the Quran, PJPTG showed respect to Muslims... and they listened to him about the Gospel of Christ. God Bless, ironmonk [/quote] Do you have any statisics on that, perhaps a percentage of Islamic conversions, to Catholicism compared to the numbers in previous generations? Or are you just blowing wind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='May 31 2005, 09:30 PM'] Don nobody was threatening to martyr the pope, he did it as a sign of respect. Not everybody adheres to middle class America's cultural standards. Ocassionally it would profit us to set outside our little boxes and pay sttention to the rest of the world. The Holy Father did that. [/quote] And the fact that he showed respect to the Persecuter of Christ in effect showing resprect to devilry doesn't bother you? Or are you saying that Islam is not of the Devil that it is a true revelation, you can't have it both ways, it is either the Truth or a lie, if a Lie then it serves Satan, if the Truth, well then we are all geniuses. Oh first I'm not middle class, and second when did American middle class values stop being the simpiring reletivism I see more and more, even I am afriad on Phatmass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemonSlayer Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 (edited) From what I read somewhere (can't remember where), he was actually with the Chaldean archbishop and not a Mulsim cleric, and it was a Bible not a koran. Edited June 1, 2005 by DemonSlayer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 I read that as well Demonslayer, but everyone insists it was a Koran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Jun 1 2005, 06:46 AM'] I read that as well Demonslayer, but everyone insists it was a Koran. [/quote] The story has no credibility. It was an attempt by one the late Holy Father's slightly overzealous apologists to make the story less objectionable. The vast majority, almost all, of his most ardent defenders, as well as numerous scholars, admit that it was in fact the Koran. That being the case, it is quite scandalous as the Koran is demonic. Countless martyrs died rather than commit any act that would imply belief or sympathy with the Mohammedans. Kissing the Koran was an act that would have saved thier lives, but what good is it to save one's life at the cost of his soul? I have little doubt that the late Holy Father’s intentions were noble enough. However, that is irrelevant. The act itself caused grave scandal. It was a bad thing to do. It was viewed as a slap in the face to countless martyrs and gave the impression to the Mohammedans that there is credibility to their 'revelation". Does it shake my faith? Not hardly. Why? Because my faith is based on the Divinely revealed truth of the Catholic Faith, not on some cult of personality surrounding the late Holy Father. In fact it had nothing to do with him as a person. Rather, my faith relied on him insofar as he possessed the full teaching authority of the Church in his capacity as Pope. Kissing the Koran was not a "Papal action", but the act of the person who happens to occupy the See of Peter. This act shakes my faith no more than the fact that Pope Alexander VI had illegitimate children does; which is to say, not at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 i heard that he actually kissed the gospel... but everyone thought it was the koran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 [img]http://www.sspx.org/images/PopeJPII/PopekissingKoran.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateo el Feo Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 Well put, popestpiusx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 lets say for a second that it was the Koran, who are we to judge the Pope of all people for his actions? Isnt there a rule on Phamtass against just that even? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 It is not for us to judge Pope John Paul II Only God can so judge him, —the Pope has no superior on earth — Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 The fact that the Pope is the Supreme Authority doesn't automaticly preclude him from ever doing anything Wrong nor from Censur for it, thats why even the Pope as to go to Confession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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