freewill in the eyes of a gay man

[Carrie]

Therapists are getting a bad rap here based on generalizations. Frankly, not all therapists are these bad, poorly trained people who do more harm than good.

Lots of people are helped by therapists every single day. What many don't understand is that a therapist won't solve all your problems. What people should realize is that therapists are a tool from God that can be used with prayer and faith for healing.

Take note, neither phatcatholic, hot stuff, or I ever just said "get therapy." We all emphasized that prayer, faith, and God are the most important and nothing can replace that BUT therapy can be a God-given tool to help someone through difficulties.

[Jaime]

[quote]Get counceling from someone with strong Catholic faith and morals or a Catholic Priest, I would say is a good suggestion.

Almost anyone can become a therapist and many of the ones that I have met are flakes.

[/quote]

The same can be said for counselors.

Most counselors are simply not trained on the intricacies of the human psyche. There are issues that they will not be able to counsel properly on.

[KizlarAgha]

Hey infinitelord -

First of all, prayers for you in your situation I think that is what you need first and foremost from people. Secondly, I think that hot stuff and Carrie are making good suggestions about therapy. Antidepressants from a psychiatrist are like painkillers for the mind. However, they don't treat the actual problems you're suffering from. That is what therapy is designed to do - treat the source of the problem so that you can overcome it.

I was reading about your struggles with suicide and with praying to God for a cure to your problems and I want to say something very hard. God may not cure your homosexuality. In fact, He probably won't. That doesn't mean that God doesn't exist and it doesn't mean that God hates you and it doesn't mean that He isn't listening. What it means is that you were meant to struggle in this way for one reason or another.

I know how distasteful that must sound, I really do. In fact, even though I know it to be the truth, I have a hard time believing it myself when things get really difficult. I just want you to know what the Archangel Gabriel said to Zachariah. He said, "Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your prayer is heard." He said a similar thing to the prophet Daniel, telling him, "As soon as you began to pray, an answer was given." That's the truth. God is listening, and God hears you, and God wants you to feel better. How that healing will take place, I couldn't begin to tell you. It might come as the cure you pray for, miracles do happen. It might come with your own acceptance of who you are and a decision to live in accordance with God's laws. I just want you to know that the answer is there, and that God is there too. Killing yourself probably looks pretty tempting some of the time, I know I think about it every day, but it isn't the right answer.

So I just wanted to tell you that no matter what happens, no matter what you do wrong, and no matter how bleak it seems; God is there for you and He loves you and people are praying for you.

Salaam olaykum,

Alina

[infinitelord1]

I think the main reason he has my on anti-depressants is because i had an experience when i was 14.........i took a bottle of robitussin with anti-psychotic pills..........well i never felt like i was completely coming down from this experience. This psychiatrist told me that this experience did 2 things to me..........killed many brain cells because of a chemical reaction between the pills and cough medicine.........secondly, left an imprint of depression on my brain. The pill are intended for 2 purposes......in hopes that it will help with my chemical imbalance (which it has been) and hopes that it will lift this scaring imprint of depression.
I think therapy is a good thing for some people and maybe not so effective for others. Even therapy from a non-religious perspective can be good just not as effective.

Edited July 7, 2005 by infinitelord1

[infinitelord1]

sometimes it makes me wonder if through this robitussin experience i became more vulnerable to evil. The person who came up with this idea is an atheist.......makes me wonder if through his demons other people were effected.

[infinitelord1]

hey ironmonk,

preciate the article i skimmed through it. but i am aware of most of that stuff anyway......makes me wonder if "coming out" is just a scapegoat for people......maybe by coming out in these groups they feel comforted with the issue.

Edited July 7, 2005 by infinitelord1

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Jul 6 2005, 08:27 PM']I think the main reason he has my on anti-depressants is because i had an experience when i was 14.........i took a bottle of robitussin with anti-psychotic pills..........well i never felt like i was completely coming down from this experience. This psychiatrist told me that this experience did 2 things to me..........killed many brain cells because of a chemical reaction between the pills and cough medicine.........secondly, left an imprint of depression on my brain. The pill are intended for 2 purposes......in hopes that it will help with my chemical imbalance (which it has been) and hopes that it will lift this scaring imprint of depression.
I think therapy is a good thing for some people and maybe not so effective for others. Even therapy from a non-religious perspective can be good just not as effective.
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[/quote]

One overdose of robitussin and now you are battling inner demons, homosexuality? I don't buy that at all. I think you can blame the robitussin all you want, but the problem has been festering inside of you long before that day.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Jul 6 2005, 08:30 PM']sometimes it makes me wonder if through this robitussin experience i became more vulnerable to evil. The person who came up with this idea is an atheist.......makes me wonder if through his demons other people were effected.
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[/quote]


First of all 'comming out' to me means , accepting yourself and removing the feelings of shame and fear from the indivual. The closet is fear, fear that if you expose yourself, you will not be loved. I know how thats like in the religious sense. Will my family not love me because I'm an Atheist. Will I be considered evil now. Catholics always try to play the card that homosexuality is a disease that can be cured. This ofcourse is considered to be highly radical approach to it. With no real science to back it up. Because we simply dont have definitives on what causes homosexuality. The morality issue on homosexuality is purely a religious one. In which you, infinitelord have bought into. The idea that we can fix homosexuality through therapy and treatment is an absolute pipedream. My brother in law was in one of these groups for 3+ years. Fighting with his homosexuality. Suffering from depression, seeking solace in scripture and God. He decided to accept himself, come out to his family and now lives a healthy wonderful life. He loves and accepts himself. Hes a great human being. Do you truly believe there is some switch that needs to be flipped so you can be attracted to women? Is there a switch that we all have that can be flipped to make me a homosexual? Does this mean, that we can develop a therapy that turns hetrosexuals into homosexuals? Are we saying, outside of heterosexuals, that sexual oreintation is something developed on a purely psychological basis?

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 7 2005, 01:01 PM']First of all 'comming out' to me means , accepting yourself and removing the feelings of shame and fear from the indivual. The closet is fear, fear that if you expose yourself, you will not be loved. I know how thats like in the religious sense. Will my family not love me because I'm an Atheist. Will I be considered evil now. Catholics always try to play the card that homosexuality is a disease that can be cured. This ofcourse is considered to be highly radical approach to it. With no real science to back it up. Because we simply dont have definitives on what causes homosexuality. The morality issue on homosexuality is purely a religious one. In which you, infinitelord have bought into.  The idea that we can fix homosexuality through therapy and treatment is an absolute pipedream. My brother in law was in one of these groups for 3+ years. Fighting with his homosexuality. Suffering from depression, seeking solace in scripture and God. He decided to accept himself, come out to his family and now lives a healthy wonderful life. He loves and accepts himself. Hes a great human being.  Do you truly believe there is some switch that needs to be flipped so you can be attracted to women? Is there a switch that we all have that can be flipped to make me a homosexual? Does this mean, that we can develop a therapy that turns hetrosexuals into homosexuals? Are we saying, outside of heterosexuals, that sexual oreintation is something developed on a purely psychological basis?
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[/quote]


You are mistaken on what Catholics say about it.

I suggest you go to the link I mentioned above, which is:
[url="http://www.cathmed.org/publications/homosexuality.html"]http://www.cathmed.org/publications/homosexuality.html[/url]

Get educated on a subject that you attempt to sound intelligent and we will take you seriously.

On a side note, do you dare read this?
[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0002.html"]http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/...ics/ap0002.html[/url]



God Bless,
ironmonk

[point5]

[quote]One overdose of robitussin and now you are battling inner demons, homosexuality? I don't buy that at all. I think you can blame the robitussin all you want, but the problem has been festering inside of you long before that day.[/quote]

While I understand what you are saying...this particular overdose should not be overlooked. I don't think it has anything to do with the homosexual desires...but it has affected his mental state big time. Ive known him since that incident happened...it wasnt just an overdose...he drank a whole bottle of it mixed with other drugs...and since that day has told me has has never felt sober again.

-Kiel

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Jul 7 2005, 11:45 AM']You are mistaken on what Catholics say about it.

I suggest you go to the link I mentioned above, which is:
[url="http://www.cathmed.org/publications/homosexuality.html"]http://www.cathmed.org/publications/homosexuality.html[/url]

Get educated on a subject that you attempt to sound intelligent and we will take you seriously.

[/quote]

After reading your sources, I dont see how it at all contradicts what I was saying the catholic view of homosexuality is. Maybe you can help me rectify my comments.

[quote]On a side note, do you dare read this?
[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0002.html"]http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/...ics/ap0002.html[/url]
God Bless,
ironmonk
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[/quote]

I did indeed read it. Nothing new there. Do you dare to read this , touche

[url="http://www.infidelguy.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=311"]http://www.infidelguy.com/modules.php?name...article&sid=311[/url]

[Socrates]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 7 2005, 01:00 PM']After reading your sources, I dont see how it at all contradicts what I was saying the catholic view of homosexuality is.  Maybe you can help me rectify my comments.
[/quote]

It provides a wealth of evidence contradicting the assertion that homosexualtiy is genetic or inborn, and that it cannot be changed.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Jul 6 2005, 08:35 PM']hey ironmonk,

preciate the article i skimmed through it. but i am aware of most of that stuff anyway......makes me wonder if "coming out" is just a scapegoat for people......maybe by coming out in these groups they feel comforted with the issue.
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[/quote]
OH MEL,

what up.....ur right......and i am not trying to blame that at all........im just looking back at the serious of events in my life, and well, the robitussin incident came first before the molesting of my cousin......im not blaming the robitussin thing for my actions im just wondering if it had anything to do with anything at all.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 7 2005, 10:15 AM']One overdose of  robitussin and now you are battling inner demons, homosexuality? I don't buy that at all. I think you can blame the  robitussin all you want, but the problem has been festering inside of you long before that day.
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[/quote]

yes i believe that homosexuality is purely a psychological issue........i also believe u when u said that ur brother-in-law has accepted himself and is living a happy life now. But quite honestly, you do not know what your brother-in-law has been through. you may know some things, but i bet u dont know everything. So to use your brother in law as an example in this thread is bad because we dont (and u dont) know the truth about what your brother in law has been through. So it is meaningless. You mentioned something about science not being able to back up the therapy that some go through to seek freedom from this burden. As far as that goes........science has never been able to prove that people are born this way. It is not genetic so what is it? Well, research show that homosexuality is actually an environmental thing. Read about the research they did on 100 sets of twins which contained at least 1 homosexual in each.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 7 2005, 10:15 AM']One overdose of  robitussin and now you are battling inner demons, homosexuality? I don't buy that at all. I think you can blame the  robitussin all you want, but the problem has been festering inside of you long before that day.
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[/quote]

This should have been your question........one overdose of robitussin mixed with antipsychotic pills that created a chemical reaction that fried a bunch of neurons in your brain and left you with severe depression and now you are battling inner demons, homosexuality?

dont leave all the details out bro..

Edited July 7, 2005 by infinitelord1

[infinitelord1]

the problem has been inside of me since i was 5 years old.......it only got worst because of depression later in life. It made me even more depressed. And i can testify that i am getting better.......maybe even having some attractions towards females.

Edited July 7, 2005 by infinitelord1

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 7 2005, 01:10 PM']It provides a wealth of evidence contradicting  the assertion that homosexualtiy is genetic or inborn, and that it cannot be changed.
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[/quote]


Where do I imply that its a genetic predisposition? I simply say it is not something you can choose to switch on and off. I think its intrinsic to that person.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 7 2005, 01:44 PM']Where do I imply that its a genetic predisposition? I simply say it is not something you can choose to switch on and off. I think its intrinsic to that person.
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[/quote]

No one is claiming that homosexuality is something that can easily be switched on and off. And nowhere does the Catholic Church teach that.

The article does give examples of it being healed, though.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 7 2005, 01:44 PM']Where do I imply that its a genetic predisposition? I simply say it is not something you can choose to switch on and off. I think its intrinsic to that person.
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[/quote]
Well, ok, forget genetics and being "born that way" then. Lets talk about the "switch" that you are referring to. I have been to the groups that u say your brother-in-law has been to. They claim that hundreds are living a heterosexual life. These who live normal lives now also claim that anybody can live a normal heterosexual life. So my question to you mel.......do you believe them?

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Jul 7 2005, 01:23 PM']yes i believe that homosexuality is purely a psychological issue........i also believe u when u said that ur brother-in-law has accepted himself and is living a happy life now. But quite honestly, you do not know what your brother-in-law has been through. you may know some things, but i bet u dont know everything. So to use your brother in law as an example in this thread is bad because we dont (and u dont) know the truth about what your brother in law has been through. So it is meaningless. You mentioned something about science not being able to back up the therapy that some go through to seek freedom from this burden. As far as that goes........science has never been able to prove that people are born this way. It is not genetic so what is it? Well, research show that homosexuality is actually an environmental thing. Read about the research they did on 100 sets of twins which contained at least 1 homosexual in each.
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[/quote]


I for one do not know if there is some heterosexual gene anymore than a homosexual one. What I do know is that, homosexuality exists in nature which can imply a variety of things. Genetic predisposition is certainly one of them, but sociological conditions aswell I suppose can come into play in the wild. The problem with twins are that you are ascribing a deterministic view upon them. Since they are genetically the same, they should grow up to be the same person. Epigenetics have shown that through twins life span, there is a divergence in traits that are expressed and are not expressed. The sociological implication to homosexuality is that we can develop a recipe to create a homosexual. The problem is that, its not at all consistent. My brother-in-law grew up in the same house as 4 other brothers did. Took part in everything the family did. For all sense and purposes had a great childhood. In his case, he felt gay from the start. That was his main struggle. Even you say in a message you posted that you were at the age of 5 when you started to struggle with it. What can you possibly know at 5 to make you even think of being attracted to other boys? My uncle, was similar. My mom raised him since he was a child, she noticed in him a femininity. She knew he would become gay. It came to fruition. I don't know what causes homosexuality, nor heterosexuality. I do know that its not a conscience choice. Nor do I believe in most cases its out of some sort of trauma you went through as a child. I do not discount that this is possible, but I do not believe based off my experience that this is the case in the bulk of homosexuality. The thing that cannot be explained is why people are born with an innate feeling for desire of the same sex. In order for you assertion to be correct, you would have to deny that is at all possible for this to occur. Your argument soley relies on that people are compelled to be gay due to childhood trauma of some sort.