Muslim attitudes towards the West

[Apotheoun]

[url="http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1749.htm"][u]Syrian Minister of Culture Riyad Na'san Al-Agha Justifies the Persecution of Syrian Intellectuals and Declares: I Am Optimistic that Israel Will Come to an End within 10 Years[/u][/url]

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1515505' date='Apr 30 2008, 10:05 PM']I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the posts of television programming in Islamic countries as "silly propaganda." These are the lies and hatred that are actually being fed to people by the Islamic media. This is what is on "mainstream" television in Islamic nations. And no, there is really nothing equivalent on this scale coming from Christians.[/quote]

How do I know that their hatred doesn't boil down to the same abuse of their Qu'ran as the KKK's abuse of the Bible? Or that used to rationalized slavery? What about Church-sponsored terrorism of Jews and their synagogues in the Medieval period?

[quote name='Socrates' post='1515505' date='Apr 30 2008, 10:05 PM']And no, I haven't heard of anything similar going on in Catholic countries (at least not from the Catholics!)[/quote]

Talk to someone from Colombia. The Church in South America has a huge problem with politicians meddling in Church affairs, pressuring bishops and priests to water down the gospel in order to maintain power, etc. The people there are notorious for mixing animalism, voodoo, and whatever other native pagan religions with Catholicism, and not in a way that is simply taking the good and tossing the bad to lead people to Christ.

I bring that stuff up just to show that we've got our share of twisted teaching and practices. If I'm going to pick the worst of Islam to judge it, why shouldn't I pick the worst of Catholicism too?

[quote name='Socrates' post='1515505' date='Apr 30 2008, 10:05 PM']My point isn't to pass judgment on individual Muslim persons, but rather I'm getting sick of of the pc drivel I see from a lot of posters about how Islam is really not that different from Christianity or Catholicism. While it may be politically-correct, such nonsense is false, and in reality does no one a favor.[/quote]

What is the point, then? We already knew that Islam is not the truth. I don't know what to make of these extremists. What I do know is Christianity is also subject to abuses in poor communities, from inner-city America to South America. Since Islam largely exists in very poor countries, seems to me this is mostly about politicians and imams holding their power through whatever means necessary. Are you saying Islam is fundamentally more subject to political abuse?

Basically, I want to see something more logical than the reports of what imams are doing because that kind of dirt is everywhere.

Edited May 4, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[mortify]

[color="#0000FF"][b]"May Saint John Baptist protect Islam and all the people of Jordan, and all who partecipated in this celebration, a memorable celebration. I’m very grateful to all of you."[/b][/color]
Pope John Paul II, [u][url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/travels/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20000321_wadi-al-kharrar_en.html"]Link to prayer[/url][/u]

[Alycin]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1518071' date='May 4 2008, 08:54 AM']How do I know that their hatred doesn't boil down to the same abuse of their Qu'ran as the KKK's abuse of the Bible? Or that used to rationalized slavery? What about Church-sponsored terrorism of Jews and their synagogues in the Medieval period?
Talk to someone from Colombia. The Church in South America has a huge problem with politicians meddling in Church affairs, pressuring bishops and priests to water down the gospel in order to maintain power, etc. The people there are notorious for mixing animalism, voodoo, and whatever other native pagan religions with Catholicism, and not in a way that is simply taking the good and tossing the bad to lead people to Christ.

I bring that stuff up just to show that we've got our share of twisted teaching and practices. If I'm going to pick the worst of Islam to judge it, why shouldn't I pick the worst of Catholicism too?
What is the point, then? We already knew that Islam is not the truth. I don't know what to make of these extremists. What I do know is Christianity is also subject to abuses in poor communities, from inner-city America to South America. Since Islam largely exists in very poor countries, seems to me this is mostly about politicians and imams holding their power through whatever means necessary. Are you saying Islam is fundamentally more subject to political abuse?

Basically, I want to see something more logical than the reports of what imams are doing because that kind of dirt is everywhere.[/quote]


So nice to see intelligence on this topic!





Also, from the sight itself:

The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) was founded in 1998 in Washington, DC. Slight bias is probably involved here, people. lol. Other parts of the world could form a "United States Christian Research Institute" and post youtube videos from the Westboro Baptists and other similar sects.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1524355' date='May 10 2008, 07:50 PM']So nice to see intelligence on this topic! [/quote]

Why thank ya! Nice to see more purty gals around here ;-)

Of course, I'm a little old for ya... and might be going to that seminary place... but we can be friends.

[quote name='Alycin' post='1524355' date='May 10 2008, 07:50 PM']Also, from the sight itself:

The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) was founded in 1998 in Washington, DC. Slight bias is probably involved here, people. lol. Other parts of the world could form a "United States Christian Research Institute" and post youtube videos from the Westboro Baptists and other similar sects.[/quote]

What makes you think they haven't formed research institutes on the U.S. and Christianity?

And Westboro Baptists are a perfect example of the kind of extremism any religion can be bent into. That's exactly what Pope Benedict was speaking against at Regensburg.

[Socrates]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1518071' date='May 4 2008, 07:54 AM']How do I know that their hatred doesn't boil down to the same abuse of their Qu'ran as the KKK's abuse of the Bible? Or that used to rationalized slavery? What about Church-sponsored terrorism of Jews and their synagogues in the Medieval period?
Talk to someone from Colombia. The Church in South America has a huge problem with politicians meddling in Church affairs, pressuring bishops and priests to water down the gospel in order to maintain power, etc. The people there are notorious for mixing animalism, voodoo, and whatever other native pagan religions with Catholicism, and not in a way that is simply taking the good and tossing the bad to lead people to Christ.

I bring that stuff up just to show that we've got our share of twisted teaching and practices. If I'm going to pick the worst of Islam to judge it, why shouldn't I pick the worst of Catholicism too?
What is the point, then? We already knew that Islam is not the truth. I don't know what to make of these extremists. What I do know is Christianity is also subject to abuses in poor communities, from inner-city America to South America. Since Islam largely exists in very poor countries, seems to me this is mostly about politicians and imams holding their power through whatever means necessary. Are you saying Islam is fundamentally more subject to political abuse?

Basically, I want to see something more logical than the reports of what imams are doing because that kind of dirt is everywhere.[/quote]
The Church has always condemned slavery and such.

I'm not discussing a few fringe corruptions and perversions of Islam here.

Violent suppression of Christians and Jews who refuse to convert to Islam is commanded in the Koran itself.
[quote][9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book [Christians and Jews], until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
[9.30] And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away![/quote]

Islam was originally spread by violent military conquest.

I have attended lectures by a number of men quite knowledgeable about Islam, who have known and lived with Muslim people, and have done their homework regarding the Koran and Muslim teaching and history.
I don't base my position solely on internet videos, though these videos are from "mainstream" television in Islamic countries.
This kind of hatred is taught daily in these places - in the mosques, in the schools, on t.v. We're not discussing a few tiny "Westboro Baptist" type fringe groups.

And I'm sorry, but I just don't buy the whole "the problem is really poverty, not Islam." There are plenty of poor Christian countries, and poor Christians, yet we see nothing comparable from Christians.
Yes, Islam is fundamentally more subject to "political abuse" than Christianity, as in Islam the political goal is the world ruled by Islam. Just look at the facts, rather than indulging in politically-correct equivocation.

[Alycin]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1525386' date='May 11 2008, 09:49 PM']Why thank ya! Nice to see more purty gals around here ;-)[/quote]



[quote]Of course, I'm a little old for ya... and might be going to that seminary place... but we can be friends.[/quote]

Yay! I love new friends.

[quote]And Westboro Baptists are a perfect example of the kind of extremism any religion can be bent into. That's exactly what Pope Benedict was speaking against at Regensburg.[/quote]

I love Papa Benny.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1526604' date='May 12 2008, 09:54 PM']Violent suppression of Christians and Jews who refuse to convert to Islam is commanded in the Koran itself.
Islam was originally spread by violent military conquest.[/quote]

I think you're grossly under-estimating the Westboro Baptists. THEY are the ones we really need to fear...not the peace-loving "victims of poverty" Muslims.


(LOL, you're right of course!)

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1526604' date='May 12 2008, 11:54 PM']The Church has always condemned slavery and such.

I'm not discussing a few fringe corruptions and perversions of Islam here.

Violent suppression of Christians and Jews who refuse to convert to Islam is commanded in the Koran itself.
Islam was originally spread by violent military conquest.[/quote]

I can produce a lot of evidence that says the Church is pro-choice and pro-contraception, and while those of us who know better wouldn't be swayed by it, a total outsider to Catholicism could be easily swayed. So all I'm saying is, as a total outsider to Islam, I'm not going to be swayed by one side's opinion. I need more that emotional arguments and circumstantial evidence. I'm pretty sure you can find imams who preach peace and there are passages of the Qu'ran that teach love for Christians and Jews. Which side should I take then?

Do you have any clue how to interpret the Qu'ran? It's not like the Bible. Some books of the Qu'ran take precedence over others, so what you read in one part may be voided by another.

That said, I can't claim to know much about it. I know enough to know I don't know.

[quote name='Socrates' post='1526604' date='May 12 2008, 11:54 PM']I have attended lectures by a number of men quite knowledgeable about Islam, who have known and lived with Muslim people, and have done their homework regarding the Koran and Muslim teaching and history.[/quote]

And what do they say?

[quote name='Socrates' post='1526604' date='May 12 2008, 11:54 PM']And I'm sorry, but I just don't buy the whole "the problem is really poverty, not Islam." There are plenty of poor Christian countries, and poor Christians, yet we see nothing comparable from Christians.[/quote]

Really?

[quote name='Socrates' post='1526604' date='May 12 2008, 11:54 PM']Yes, Islam is fundamentally more subject to "political abuse" than Christianity, as in Islam the political goal is the world ruled by Islam. Just look at the facts, rather than indulging in politically-correct equivocation.[/quote]

Here you're starting to make a good point. I just want to a good argument. Too much of this is just emotion. Plus, I think it's only fair to distinguish between Islam and Muslims as individuals. Most Muslims are regular people who want to live at peace. They can also be surprisingly curious about Christianity.

[Alycin]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1528974' date='May 14 2008, 10:25 PM']Most Muslims are regular people who want to live at peace. They can also be surprisingly curious about Christianity.[/quote]

Some people (not me) won't believe this no matter how true it might be.


(I say "how true it might be" because my experience with Muslims is very limited. All the Muslims I have known, though, maybe 5 or 6, are normal people.)

[LouisvilleFan]

Well, Islam may still be fundamentally geared towards repression of civil rights and global domination while most Muslims aren't that way.

In the same way, I know Masonry's errors, but I distinguish between Masonry and individuals who are Masons, like my grandfather.

[Socrates]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1528974' date='May 14 2008, 09:25 PM']I can produce a lot of evidence that says the Church is pro-choice and pro-contraception, and while those of us who know better wouldn't be swayed by it, a total outsider to Catholicism could be easily swayed. So all I'm saying is, as a total outsider to Islam, I'm not going to be swayed by one side's opinion. I need more that emotional arguments and circumstantial evidence. I'm pretty sure you can find imams who preach peace and there are passages of the Qu'ran that teach love for Christians and Jews. Which side should I take then?[/quote]
There is no evidence that the Church is pro-abortion and pro-contraception, as she has consistently and clearly taught otherwise.
(Of course, as there is no Muslim "Pope" or "magisterium," this makes Muslim comparisons a bit more difficult, though the historical record and events that continue to this day show that Islam is anything but a "religion of peace.")
When looking at Islam's "true nature," one should look at its founding and early history, which are hardly benevolent and peaceful.

And perhaps you can provide for some of these Koran passages allegedly teaching "love for Christians and Jews"? (Yes, I know the Muslims honor Christ as a "prophet," though they deny that most of the important things Christians believe about Him are true.)
Islam teaches that Jews and Christians willfully reject what their own Scriptures teach, and thus must be subject to the Muslims until they convert. The heavy poll-tax (jizya) imposed on Christians and Jews living under Muslim rule is based on the Koran 9:29: "Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, [b]until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.[/b]"


[quote]Do you have any clue how to interpret the Qu'ran? It's not like the Bible. Some books of the Qu'ran take precedence over others, so what you read in one part may be voided by another.

That said, I can't claim to know much about it. I know enough to know I don't know. [/quote]
You don't have much of an argument if you don't know. Muslims have through history interpreted the passage about fighting Christians and Jews who refuse to convert into submission and taxing them quite literally.

[quote]And what do they say?[/quote]
Basically, what I'm saying here, though in much more detail.

[quote]Really?[/quote]
Absolutely. The world's most militant "radical" Islamists come from oil-rich Saudi Arabia. Osama bin Laden was a billionaire (and I hardly think you can claim that his deeds have gained him any material comforts, as he now lives his life hiding in caves). The 9-11 hijackers (and most of the other Islamic terrorists) were not living in desperate poverty (and indeed, with their pilot training, could have easily had cushy careers).
The idea that the "root cause" of Islamic violence is poverty or economic oppression is nothing but leftist-materialist ideological tripe.

[quote]Here you're starting to make a good point. I just want to a good argument. Too much of this is just emotion. Plus, I think it's only fair to distinguish between Islam and Muslims as individuals. Most Muslims are regular people who want to live at peace. They can also be surprisingly curious about Christianity.[/quote]
My point never was to judge the souls of individual Muslim people, most of whom I'm sure harbor no malice and merely want to go about their lives, but rather to show that the Islamic religion itself is not the benign and peaceful religion it is often made out to be.

[jeffpugh]

Wow... lots of discussion on this thread. Cool I just wanna interject that the big problem with Islam is authority... like Soc said, there is no "Muslim Majesterium". It's basically one Muslim's word against another's when it comes to interpreting their scripture.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1529936' date='May 15 2008, 10:40 PM']There is no evidence that the Church is pro-abortion and pro-contraception, as she has consistently and clearly taught otherwise.[/quote]

You say that because you understand Catholicism. People who don't can be easily taken in by the arguments of groups like Catholics for a Free Choice and the examples set by Catholic politicians and bishops. The point being, I don't want to buy into any particular interpretation of the Qu'ran without (at the least) an educated opinion from both sides.

[quote name='Socrates' post='1529936' date='May 15 2008, 10:40 PM']When looking at Islam's "true nature," one should look at its founding and early history, which are hardly benevolent and peaceful.[/quote]

True.

[quote name='Socrates' post='1529936' date='May 15 2008, 10:40 PM']And perhaps you can provide for some of these Koran passages allegedly teaching "love for Christians and Jews"?[/quote]

[url="http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=266036"]This[/url] looks like a good start.

From that link, you can get this quote, among others:
"Those who are Jews, and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day is good, they shall have their reward from their Lord" (Qu'ran II:62)

What are we supposed to make of this?

[quote name='Socrates' post='1529936' date='May 15 2008, 10:40 PM']Islam teaches that Jews and Christians willfully reject what their own Scriptures teach, and thus must be subject to the Muslims until they convert. The heavy poll-tax (jizya) imposed on Christians and Jews living under Muslim rule is based on the Koran 9:29: "Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, [b]until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.[/b]"[/quote]

Sounds like a bit of contradiction to other passages... I don't know what to make of it.

[quote name='Socrates' post='1529936' date='May 15 2008, 10:40 PM']You don't have much of an argument if you don't know. Muslims have through history interpreted the passage about fighting Christians and Jews who refuse to convert into submission and taxing them quite literally.[/quote]

I know I don't have much of an argument. My whole point is that there's more to interpreting the Qu'ran than I know about, which is why I'm not just going to dive in head first with what you say without at least hearing the "Islam is peaceful" argument. If what you're saying is true, then you should be able to produce the opposing argument and explain why it's wrong.

[quote name='Socrates' post='1529936' date='May 15 2008, 10:40 PM']Absolutely. The world's most militant "radical" Islamists come from oil-rich Saudi Arabia. Osama bin Laden was a billionaire (and I hardly think you can claim that his deeds have gained him any material comforts, as he now lives his life hiding in caves). The 9-11 hijackers (and most of the other Islamic terrorists) were not living in desperate poverty (and indeed, with their pilot training, could have easily had cushy careers).
The idea that the "root cause" of Islamic violence is poverty or economic oppression is nothing but leftist-materialist ideological tripe.[/quote]

Can you explain why it is tripe? Snoop Dogg, Shaq, Eminem, and the multitudes of organized crime bosses in the world are also filthy rich. There's more to the psychology of what drives people to violence and using whatever is at their disposal (could be religion, drugs, computer hacking, prostitution, alcohol, or a lot of other things) that how much wealth one might have accumulated. The countries that are breeding grounds for Islamic extremism are also some of the poorest countries in the world. That's a simple fact, and not a coincidence.

Basically, if you grow up with opportunities to be legitimately successful, you are far less likely to turn a life of violence. After all, we all have a conscience which tells us violence is wrong and attempts to steer us towards peace.

Plus, it should go without saying, but we Christians have participated in our share of religious terrorism. Christianity didn't start out that way, which points to the heart of Christianity not being violent, but we've got that stuff in our past nevertheless.

[mortify]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1530109' date='May 16 2008, 12:16 AM']Wow... lots of discussion on this thread. Cool I just wanna interject that the big problem with Islam is authority... like Soc said, there is no "Muslim Majesterium". It's basically one Muslim's word against another's when it comes to interpreting their scripture.[/quote]

I think this may seem problematic only to a Catholic, the reality is you don't need a Pope to establish some consistency of belief (just look at the Orthodox.) Nor does it mean that every Islamic doctrine can be questioned and therefore any newer, more moderate doctrine, can be posed as the legitimate teaching.

Sunni Islam has four schools of thought, even though they disagree on some particular issues they more or less agree on the vast majority. Muslims have told me this "majority of agreement" is well into 90% similarity. And these differences amount to where a Muslim should place their hands during prayer, i.e. on their chest or towards there abdomen. I'd like to challenge anyone to show something from the founders of these schools of thought that in anyway undermines the concept of offensive Jihad (that is, Muslims taking the offensive and warring within non-Muslims.) You simply wont find it, any such movement is modern and belongs to liberal Muslims, not to those holding fast to orthodox Islam.

Furthermore, there is the vast body of Islamic literature outside of the Quran: the Hadith, which are the collected sayings of Muhammad, and the collective teaching of the Salifyoon, or the first three generations after Muhammad which carry particular weight in interpretation. Muhammad carried out wars, as did his "rightfully guided" successors, and most certainly engaged in offensive war against non-Muslims.

The Muslims have done very well in preserving their teachings, gathering sources, and establishing sound methods of interpretation. You don't need a Pope when consensus exists and there is no doubt over an established teaching that goes back to Muhammad.