Muslim attitudes towards the West

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1535807' date='May 21 2008, 02:57 AM']Islam hasn't existed for 2,000 years.[/quote]

But Christianity has, and religious terrorism predates both Mohammad and Christ.

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1535807' date='May 21 2008, 02:57 AM']And as long as people like you continue to deflect criticism of Islamic activity with comments like "There are Christian terrorists, too" then NOTHING will be done about Islam.

It's incredible to me that you continue to reject Islam as a religion but yet continue to make light of their bloodshed all over the world.[/quote]

You're not even going to address the existence of Christian and Jewish terrorist groups? It seems all you want is for me to agree with you without reason. I'm trying to reason this stuff out, but reason and logic seem to have no role in your thinking.

Here, I am asking for your input about what we should do about Islamic terrorism and the best you can do is blame me as part of the problem?

Alright.


How about we all simply pray?

[Alycin]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1535807' date='May 21 2008, 01:57 AM']And as long as people like you continue to deflect criticism of Islamic activity with comments like "There are Christian terrorists, too" then NOTHING will be done about Islam.[/quote]

What do you suggest CAN be done? I'm truly curious what the "plan of action" would be if you could convince everyone to be as fanatical about Islam as you are?

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1535823' date='May 21 2008, 01:18 AM']But Christianity has, and religious terrorism predates both Mohammad and Christ.[/quote]

The issue was Islam. You even said "Muslims" in your "2,000 years" question.

People like you always try to shift the discussion to unrelated issues whenever the topic of radical Islam is broached. But your dodging and deflecting won't change the reality that the single greatest threat to peace, stability, and the legitimate constitutional sovereignty of democratic nations, presently in existence TODAY is Islam. Whether it's Muslims killing, raping, subjugating and preaching hatred from one corner of the globe to the other, or whether it's Muslims trying to force their culture and way of life onto the non-Muslim world through foot baths in American universities, prayer rooms in American malls, special breaks for prayers during work time in American companies, minarets equipped with loudspeakers towering high in the sky in American cities, or Muslims re-writing Islamic history in the textbooks of American schools. The facts speak for themselves. Your hand-holding and bleeding heart rhetoric doesn't change the pitiful reality one single iota. It will only make the reality a lot harder for you to wake up to later on.

[LouisvilleFan]

Okay, lady. Take a chill pill.

You're still not giving me a single reason to be convinced. You present an emotional argument while I've taken the time to research facts and bring them to the table. You also fail to make one constructive suggestion as far as what we could do about extremist Islam.

Instead, you insist on making fun of me, calling me a "bleeding heart," as though I care what you think about me. The louder you scream, the more I'm gonna have to tune you out.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1536080' date='May 21 2008, 09:36 AM']Okay, lady. Take a chill pill.[/quote]


Lies. You haven't researched a single thing. The internet is rampant with people who have blogs and websites who have devoted to their lives to exposing radical Islam. Bookstores are full of the excellent books that have been written on the topic of the threat of Islam to the West. These books continue to be written, with new ones being published on a near monthly basis.

You haven't looked at one single bit of any of it.

Stay blind. Apparently, it's what you need. Maybe facing facts is too much for you.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1536088' date='May 21 2008, 11:47 AM']Lies. You haven't researched a single thing.[/quote]

I proved that the Middle East is indeed dirt poor in order to support my opinion that poverty is part of the reason extremist Islam exists. You didn't counter those facts with any research of your own, so I take that to mean you have nothing.

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1536088' date='May 21 2008, 11:47 AM']The internet is rampant with people who have blogs and websites who have devoted to their lives to exposing radical Islam. Bookstores are full of the excellent books that have been written on the topic of the threat of Islam to the West. These books continue to be written, with new ones being published on a near monthly basis.

You haven't looked at one single bit of any of it.

Stay blind. Apparently, it's what you need. Maybe facing facts is too much for you.[/quote]

Actually, I have a friend who sends me e-mails on a nearly daily basis about Islam and terrorism (I don't read all of them, but I've read enough to get the idea). I also support a local chapter if InterVarsity Christian Fellowship which reaches out to international students, many of whom are Muslim. I've also supported CatholicWing and his church.

The problem, as I've been trying to get across, is it's difficult to find objective research and opinion on radical Islam. Most of these web sites, blogs, and other materials are so filled with emotion and rhetoric that I'm left believing all of this is more a matter of perception than reality.

Still, I'm willing to lay the argument about Islam to rest if you have one suggestion about what our response should be.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1536093' date='May 21 2008, 10:03 AM']Still, I'm willing to lay the argument about Islam to rest if you have one suggestion about what our response should be.[/quote]


First of all, since when was it demanded of me to provide an answer to Islam??

But the answer is the same as what I have always said is necessary with regard to this issue: getting educated and staying informed. Not putting our heads in the sand.

It's impossible to combat any radical ideaology without first being informed.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1536093' date='May 21 2008, 10:03 AM']but I've read enough to get the idea[/quote]

Sure you have.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1536105' date='May 21 2008, 12:46 PM']First of all, since when was it demanded of me to provide an answer to Islam??

But the answer is the same as what I have always said is necessary with regard to this issue: getting educated and staying informed. Not putting our heads in the sand.

It's impossible to combat any radical ideaology without first being informed.[/quote]

You're the one coming here, posting videos of crazy imams preaching against America and other sensationalist junk. But you don't even have a solution.

However, I just told you some of things I'm actually doing to be a small part of the solution, and the first thing I suggested was prayer. That you seem to not even care to pray for Muslims and victims of terrorism says a lot about who you trust.

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1536106' date='May 21 2008, 12:47 PM']Sure you have.[/quote]

How do you know?

[mod]--Era Might[/mod]


Why haven't you said anything about Sharia Law and Islam's incorporation of government into their religious system? One of the key issues with Islam is that there is no concept of "separation of church and state." My gosh, I know the freaking arguments you could be making, but you seem to be completely ignorant.

[Deb]

Pray, pray, pray.
Just enjoy the day. Don't worry about what may happen. God will decide that. We are all going to die. Yes. Death will come to us all and probably to every single one of us on this forum before any resolution to any topic here.
Offer it up. Smile. Give someone a hug, especially if they are Muslim.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1536250' date='May 21 2008, 01:06 PM']How do you know?[/quote]

Because you said you did.

(rolls @@ eyes)

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1536250' date='May 21 2008, 01:06 PM'][mod]--Era Might[/mod][/quote]

You sound like a nice person. Actually, you sound a lot like a Muslim. [mod]--Era Might[/mod]

[StColette]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1536250' date='May 21 2008, 02:06 PM'][mod]--Era Might[/mod][/quote]

You may disagree with her, but this is really uncalled for.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1536418' date='May 21 2008, 05:05 PM']Because you said you did.

(rolls @@ eyes)[/quote]

I said "Actually, I have a friend who sends me e-mails on a nearly daily basis about Islam and terrorism (I don't read all of them, but I've read enough to get the idea)."

If you saw the length of these e-mails, you would realize that I'd have to be unemployed to have time to read them all. But, I do read those that catch my interest. I don't always agree with them, especially those messages that simply quote a bunch of Qu'ran verses. I view that as poor logic, especially since they are never accompanied with any explanation about how to interpret the Qu'ran. Still, I agree that extremist Islam is a problem, and in all frankness, I'm doing a lot more than you to combat it.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1536420' date='May 21 2008, 05:06 PM']You sound like a nice person. Actually, you sound a lot like a Muslim. [mod]--Era Might[/mod][/quote]

I am a really nice person. A little too nice sometimes. That picture of Hillary suits you, though.

[Madame Vengier]

Keep the insults coming. You're doing a great job.

[Apotheoun]

The point of this thread is to highlight Islamic attitudes towards the West (and Israel) as presented on Islamic TV.

Members of Phatmass calling each other names is pointless. [color="#FF0000"]Please stick to the topic.[/color]

[url="http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1770.htm"][u]Jordanian University Lecturer Ibrahim 'Alloush Suggests Sending Suicide-Bombers Armed with "Small Nuclear Bombs" to Israel[/u][/url]

Edited May 22, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[url="http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/1761.htm"][u]Former Jordanian Minister Ali Al-Faqir Vows to Conquer Spain and Rome and Declares: America and the EU Will Soon Come to an End[/u][/url]

[Socrates]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1535801' date='May 21 2008, 12:49 AM']I'm well aware of that, but if we weren't Catholic, we probably wouldn't have a clue. All I'm saying is the existence of extremist Islam doesn't mean Islam is itself in favor of violence any more than the existence of Catholics for a Free Choice means Catholicism is itself in favor of contraception and gay marriage.[/quote]
Give me a break. Anyone who does the smallest amount of research can tell that those dissident groups are dissenters from official Catholic dogma, not vice-versa, whatever their own opinion may be on those matters. Even the most liberal of media reports will say that these groups break with Rome and Catholic tradition on these issues, even if they side with the dissenters.
As I said before (but unfortunately accidentally messed up with the quote feature), while the Church teaches firmly against such dissent, where is the equivalent strong, firm and unambiguous denunciation by "mainstream Islam" of acts of Islamic violence by the "extremists"?

[quote]Instead of looking at the opinions that are out there, we need to look at the religion itself.[/quote]
Yes, and the religion of Islam itself, as stated in the Koran, says that Christians and Jews that refuse to convert to Islam are to be fought into submission and made to pay a penal tax in recognition of Muslim superiority.
And this has been standard practice from the earliest conquests in Muslim ruled lands. It's not a deviation.

[quote]Our record with Jews, the Orthodox, Protestants, and natives in the Americas isn't a whole lot better. Why are we allowed to ignore rapes and murders at the hands of Christians (even against other Christians) while we attack Muslims for the same sins?[/quote]
With all due respect, that is a load of manure. The Catholic Church has simply not been involved in anything like the Islamic terrorism which continues around the world to this day. Yes, self-professed Christians have done some very un-Christian things, yet their deeds are not sanctioned by the Church, and are often unambigously condemned. And warfare between two groups is not the same as terrorism.

It is this blatantly false allegation that Islam is no more violent or prone to evil than Christianity that I take greatest issue with here. This kind of self-depreciating equivocation between Muslims and Christians may be pc, but it is hardly supported by the facts.

[quote]Ditto ;-) You've come here to say we need to take a stand against Islam and do something about it. I agree that Islam doesn't teach the truth. I agree that Islam is prone to terrorism (though it's one of several contributing factors). What are we supposed to do about it?[/quote]
We need to take the threat seriously, and form policy accordingly. Also, some have worked to try to build up resistance among more moderate Muslim groups against violence. And of course, pray.
However, denying reality, and claiming that Islam is really no more violent than Catholicism does no one a favor whatsoever.

[quote]What makes you think Saudi Arabia is one of the world's richest countries?

Let's look at GDP per capita from the [url="https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/index.html"]CIA World Factbook[/url] for some countries that are know to harbor terrorists and are generally uncooperative with the West in fighting terrorism:

Saudi Arabia: $20,700
Iran: $12,300
Egypt: $5,400
Syria: $4,300
Iraq: $3,600
Pakistan: $2,600
Sudan: $2,500
Afghanistan: $1,000

And some countries that are relatively peaceful and cooperative with the West:

Qatar: $75,900
Kuwait: $55,300
United Arab Emirates: $55,200
Turkey: $9,400

For sake of comparison:
United States: $46,000

Keep in mind, however, that these stats can be misleading due to the incredibly disproportionate amount of wealth held by the leaders of most countries whose economies relies so much on a natural resource. Contrary to our perception, the vast majority of Arabs are far poorer than our own poor. After all, you can make more than Turkey's GDP per capita just working full-time at McDonald's. So, it's safe to say that that standard of living for most citizens of Kuwait, Qatar, and the UAE is probably not as high as most Americans.

FWIW, these three are are among the [url="https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html"]world's ten richest countries[/url]. Luxembourg is the richest.[/quote]
Ok, I may have been confusing Saudi Arabia with the other rich oil-producing countries you listed. (Still, ranking 58 richest out of 239 hardly qualifies it among the world's poorest nations.)
However, there are quite a few oil-rich fat cats in Saudi Arabia (including the Bin Laden family), and it has been well-established that these rich Saudi fat cats are the world's leading financiers of terrorism and Islamic extremism around the globe. (see the [url="http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL32499.pdf"]CRS Report to Congress on Saudi Arabia: Terrorist Financing Issues[/url].)

[quote]Did Osama grow up in a rich family? I really don't know. What I'd like to see is evidence that says middle class Muslims are just as likely to become terrorists as the poor or the very few rich.[/quote]
I thought the wealth of Osama bin Laden's family was common knowledge.
From Wikipedia:[quote]Osama bin Laden was born in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.[12] In a 1998 interview, he gave his birth date as 10 March 1957.[13] [b]His father Muhammed Awad bin Laden was a wealthy businessman with close ties to the Saudi royal family.[/b][14] Osama bin Laden was born the only son of Muhammed bin Laden's tenth wife, Hamida al-Attas.[15] Osama's parents divorced soon after he was born, according to Khaled M. Batarfi. Osama's mother then married Muhammad al-Attas. The couple had four children, and Osama lived in the new household with three stepbrothers and one stepsister.[16]

Bin Laden was raised as a devout Sunni Muslim.[17] From 1968 to 1976 he attended the "élite" secular Al-Thager Model School.[18] Bin Laden studied economics and business administration[19] at King Abdulaziz University. Some reports suggest bin Laden earned a degree in civil engineering in 1979,[20] or a degree in public administration in 1981.[21] Other sources describe him as having left university during his third year,[22] never completing a college degree, though "hard working."[23] At university, bin Laden's main interest was religion, where he was involved in both "interpreting the Quran and jihad" and charitable work.[/quote]
Whatever bin Laden's motivations, poverty and "lack of opportunity for legitimate success" would hardly seem to be among them!
Just run a search on Osama bin Laden, and most stories about him mention his great wealth. The BBC in an early news story describes him as "[b]an immensely wealthy and private man[/b]." (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/155236.stm)
None of the 9-11 terrorists were living in desperate poverty, and I remember reading in other reports that at least a fair number of Islamic terrorists came from solidly middle-class backgrounds.
It was you who asserted that it poverty was a major root cause of terrorism, yet you have provided nothing whatever to show that most Islamic terrorists were living in desperate poverty.

It can also be noted that Turkey, on your list of "countries that are relatively peaceful and cooperative with the West" has less than half the per capita wealth of Saudi Arabia, so clearly poverty is not the main factor here.

It may be common and pc in the liberal west to blame the world's problems primarily on poverty and economic factors, however this does not really reflect the truth, reflecting rather a materialistic view of human nature, which downplays the importance of things like religion. (Before you jump on me, I'm not accusing you of having a materialistic mindset, but you seemed to have absorbed the common secular view of world affairs which reflects this.)

[quote]Are we talking about all the last 2,000 years or only current day? Christian terrorism is out there. Here's a whole list of Christian terrorist groups [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism"]on wikipedia[/url] operating in the U.S., Canada, Burma, Uganda, Northern Ireland, Yugoslavia, India, Lebanon, and Russia (the article is apparently pretty biased, but I'm only using it as a source stating the existence of these groups).[/quote]
Yeah, I saw all the warnings at top. Is that the best you can come up with?
Most of such groups are fringes of fringes, and have done absolutely nothing on the scale of Islamic terrorism. Saying that Islam is no more violent than Christianity is pc garbage, not rooted in the facts. As a Christian, why are you regurgitating this croutons? Honestly.

[quote]Still, in the end, we're still faced with the question of what to do about Islam.[/quote]
See my answer earlier.

Edited May 22, 2008 by Socrates

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1536606' date='May 21 2008, 08:17 PM']Keep the insults coming. You're doing a great job.[/quote]

Mad V, if you were capable of posting even one fact, like Socrates did, I'd find you at least partially tolerable. I've asked honest questions and you've only responded with hostility. To me, that means you don't have a clue what you're talking about since you're apparently incapable of explaining it. All you do is scream and throw temper tantrums like a two-year-old kid who dropped her pacifier.

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1536733' date='May 21 2008, 10:53 PM']The point of this thread is to highlight Islamic attitudes towards the West (and Israel) as presented on Islamic TV.

Members of Phatmass calling each other names is pointless. [color="#FF0000"]Please stick to the topic.[/color][/quote]

What's the point of posting these videos? Maybe I don't get it because I haven't watched any of them, but it seems like the kind of thing where if you've seen one, you've seen them all. So, is there a point, or will this just be an endless series of the same videos?