Muslim attitudes towards the West

[Madame Vengier]

There are also Koranic texts (or Hadith, sorry I'm not sure which but it's one of them) which give permission for Muslim men to commit rape against "kafir" (infidels, unbelievers) women. Basically, when it comes to the infidels all bets are off.

This is not at all diffcult to imagine when you understand that some of the teachings of Islam lower infidels to the status of animals (apes and pigs). In some sense the ideology is similar to that of the Nazis, who dehumanized the Jews in order to be able to torture and kill them. This deals in the psychological realm as well as the spiritual. I'm not smart enough to explain this--maybe someone will come along and do a better job--but there is something about the natural inability to do harm to another human being. Somehow, the human has to be DE-humanized first. It's the same with rape. Men can rape women when they have begun to see them as something less than human. But in the case of Islam it is a total theology that extends to all unbelievers.

Edited May 23, 2008 by Madame Vengier

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='mortify' post='1537924' date='May 22 2008, 06:30 PM']Understand that Muslims regard this Muhammad as the *best* human being that ever lived, as the model for *all* mankind. I shudder at the thought.[/quote]
Yes. In the hadith he is portrayed as the exemplar of humanity.

[mortify]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1537959' date='May 22 2008, 07:48 PM']Yes. In the hadith he is portrayed as the exemplar of humanity.[/quote]

The quran itself calls him a model for all mankind.

[Apotheoun]

An excerpt from Steven Runciman's book, [u]The Fall of Constantinople[/u]:

"Five days after the fall of the city [the Sultan Mehmet] gave a banquet. In the course of it, when he was well flushed with wine, someone whispered to him that Notaras's fourteen-year old son was a boy of exceptional beauty. The Sultan at once sent a eunuch to the house of the Megadux to demand that the boy be sent to him for his pleasure. Notaras, whose two elder sons had been killed fighting, refused to sacrifice the boy to such a fate. Police were then sent to bring Notaras with his son and his young son-in-law, the son of the Grand Domestic Andronicus Cantacuzenus, into the Sultan's presence. When Notaras still defied the Sultan, orders were given for him and the two boys to be decapitated on the spot. Notaras merely asked that they should be slain before him, lest the sight of his death should make them waver. When they had both perished he bared his neck to the executioner." [page 151]

[Apotheoun]

An interesting debate. Sadly the majority of the audience holds a position that is contrary to human freedom.

[url="http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1623.htm"][u]Muslim Scholars Debate Apostates in Islam[/u][/url]

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1537705' date='May 22 2008, 06:36 PM']Mad V's rackin' up a big ol' ignore list!

[mod]--Era Might[/mod][/quote]


[quote name='StColette' post='1537774' date='May 22 2008, 07:30 PM']I don't know either lol[/quote]

Oh, I thought that was a common enough saying...

[mod]--Era Might[/mod]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1538047' date='May 22 2008, 07:33 PM']Oh, I thought that was a common enough saying...

[mod]--Era Might[/mod][/quote]
This post is off topic.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1537825' date='May 22 2008, 08:31 PM']And out of all those people I have 5 on ignore. I don't see what the big deal is.[/quote]

Strangely, hardly anyone finds it necessary to put even one person on ignore, much less five.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1538053' date='May 22 2008, 07:35 PM']Strangely, hardly anyone finds it necessary to put even one person on ignore, much less five.[/quote]
I have never put a person on ignore, but your post has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. I will report any further off topic posts to the moderators.

[Apotheoun]

[url="http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/1775.htm"][u]Leader of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine - General Command, Ahmad Jibril, Salutes Suicide Bombers and Slams PA Negotiators[/u][/url]

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1537856' date='May 22 2008, 08:55 PM']I started this thread so that people in the U.S. could be exposed to the propaganda going out over the airwaves in the Islamic world. I studied Islam as a part of my history degree, and I have become concerned because Americans in particular know nothing about the history of Islam. Americans also seem to be completely oblivious to the destruction of various Christian cultures perpetrated in the name of Mohammad, and which is still going on in parts of the middle east today.[/quote]

Thanks for explaining this. Just seeing a bunch of videos posted with explanation about what they are here for smelled of discrimination and racism to me, so I wasn't sure what you were going for. The questions I've asked were honest questions, but clearly Mad V's style of response proved rather ineffective at helping any of us.

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1537933' date='May 22 2008, 09:34 PM']Rape occurred throughout the city, both of women and young girls, and even of boys. They did other acts as well in the Churches in order to make fun of Christ.[/quote]

And, if I can ask a question about this... the obvious counter argument from a Muslim is going to be that Christians did the same stuff. How do you show that we're actually different? For every St. Francis, there were a hundred rapists and murderers on "our side."

[Apotheoun]

The difference is that killing apostates is not a doctrine of Christianity, while it is a doctrine of Islam.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1537902' date='May 22 2008, 09:21 PM'][b]Louisville Fan[/b], this may be good for you if you have the 100 minutes to spare becuase it deals with the questions you have asked, in a straightforward and calm manner. I understand you don't like information that you pereceive as too harsh on Muslims, etc. I understand that, so this may be something more suitable for you.[/quote]

I'll watch it over the next few days, but I'll read the [url="http://ourbeacon.com/index.php?p=29296"]rebuttal[/url] that's posted in the comments section. In the process of learning about Catholicism, I checked out everything from Calvinism to Dignity/USA, and I think it's only fair to be as equitable with the various opinions regarding Islam.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1538054' date='May 22 2008, 08:36 PM']I have never put a person on ignore, but your post has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. I will report any further off topic posts to the moderators.[/quote]


Apo, just to let you know (and this will be deleted later, so don't worry) I tried to message you but it said your box was full, so I messaged a moderator who said she would look into it. I suggested/offered that a moderater could come in and delete all this off-topic stuff and streamline the thread back to the way it should be because you were right, this should not have happened. It just might take a day, b/c moderator was busy tonight. Don't worry--this is going to get cleaned up.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1538068' date='May 22 2008, 07:54 PM']And, if I can ask a question about this... the obvious counter argument from a Muslim is going to be that Christians did the same stuff. How do you show that we're actually different? For every St. Francis, there were a hundred rapists and murderers on "our side."[/quote]
Of course there are individuals who have not lived up to the teaching of Christ, and there are even many people who have committed horrible acts in the name of Christ, but their actions do not reflect the teaching of Christ or the Church. In Islam, on the other hand, those who commit these vile acts of depravity are doing so under the command of the Prophet Mohammed as recounted in the book of Jihad in the various hadith collections.

Clearly, individuals in both religions can be either good or bad, depending upon their actions, but that is not the central issue; instead, the central issue is that the teachings of Mohammed, as compared to the teachings of Christ recounted in the Gospels, if lived as Mohammed intended, ultimately leads to the deaths of those who object to his fatalistic religion.

Edited May 23, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1538089' date='May 22 2008, 08:07 PM']I'll watch it over the next few days, but I'll read the [url="http://ourbeacon.com/index.php?p=29296"]rebuttal[/url] that's posted in the comments section. In the process of learning about Catholicism, I checked out everything from Calvinism to Dignity/USA, and I think it's only fair to be as equitable with the various opinions regarding Islam.[/quote]
I recommend that you do what I did, and buy a copy of the Sahih Al-Bukhari, it was an eye opener, because it revealed the violent nature of the Mohammedan religion.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1538093' date='May 22 2008, 08:08 PM']Apo, just to let you know (and this will be deleted later, so don't worry) I tried to message you but it said your box was full, so I messaged a moderator who said she would look into it. I suggested/offered that a moderater could come in and delete all this off-topic stuff and streamline the thread back to the way it should be because you were right, this should not have happened. It just might take a day, b/c moderator was busy tonight. Don't worry--this is going to get cleaned up. [/quote]
Thank you.

[Madame Vengier]

About Christianity and killing...

Right, it's not a doctrine of our faith, is not supported in our teachings, and is not commanded in our scriptures.

The same can't be said for Islam.

And regarding those turbulent periods of Christian history when there were gross abuses, hundreds of years later we are still looking back and are ashamed. Because there were abuses. We own up to it. We don't condone it.

Again, the same can't be said for Islam.

It should be pointed out that not all "killings" by Christians were abuses, though. Not everything that transpired during the various crusades was unjust. The Muslims put the Christians through pure, living hell on earth and finally we fought back.

It's also worth noting that when we finally DID fight back we did so long after the Muslim oppression was still going on. For example, Spain was under Islamic oppression for 700 years before the Crusaders finally liberated it.

Our ancestors can't be accused of impatience, that's for sure. Personally, I wouldn't have given the Muslims 700 hours of that croutons, let alone 700 years. But that's just me.

Edited May 23, 2008 by Madame Vengier

[Apotheoun]

I created this thread simply to be informative, with the intention of exposing Catholics to programs broadcast in the Islamic world; but sadly, the thread has now been moved to the debate table.

Edited May 23, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1538113' date='May 22 2008, 08:18 PM']About Christianity and killing...

Right, it's not a doctrine of our faith, is not supported in our teachings, and is not commanded in our scriptures.

The same can't be said for Islam.[/quote]
I agree. In the Gospels Christ never tells His followers to kill the innocent.

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1538113' date='May 22 2008, 08:18 PM']And regarding those turbulent periods of Christian history when there were gross abuses, hundreds of years later we are still looking back and are ashamed. Because there were abuses. We own up to it. We don't condone it.[/quote]
Yes. Pope John Paul II asked for forgiveness in connection with the acts of those who in the name of Christ killed or persecuted innocent human beings.

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1538113' date='May 22 2008, 08:18 PM']Again, the same can't be said for Islam.

It should be pointed out that not all "killings" by Christians were abuses, though. Not everything that transpired during the various crusades was unjust. The Muslims put the Christians through pure, living hell on earth and finally we fought back.

It's also worth noting that when we finally DID fight back we do so long after the Muslim oppression was still going on. For example, Spain was under Islamic oppression for 700 years before the Crusaders finally liberated it.

Our ancestors can't be accused of impatience, that's for sure. Personally, I wouldn't have given the Muslims 700 hours of that croutons, let alone 700 years. But that's just me. [/quote]
Yes. The Crusades did not happen in a vacuum. They were a response to nearly 500 years of Islamic aggression.