Apotheoun Posted May 23, 2008 Author Share Posted May 23, 2008 [quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1538089' date='May 22 2008, 08:07 PM']I'll watch it over the next few days, but I'll read the [url="http://ourbeacon.com/index.php?p=29296"]rebuttal[/url] that's posted in the comments section. In the process of learning about Catholicism, I checked out everything from Calvinism to Dignity/USA, and I think it's only fair to be as equitable with the various opinions regarding Islam.[/quote] I recommend that you do what I did, and buy a copy of the Sahih Al-Bukhari, it was an eye opener, because it revealed the violent nature of the Mohammedan religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted May 23, 2008 Author Share Posted May 23, 2008 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1538093' date='May 22 2008, 08:08 PM']Apo, just to let you know (and this will be deleted later, so don't worry) I tried to message you but it said your box was full, so I messaged a moderator who said she would look into it. I suggested/offered that a moderater could come in and delete all this off-topic stuff and streamline the thread back to the way it should be because you were right, this should not have happened. It just might take a day, b/c moderator was busy tonight. Don't worry--this is going to get cleaned up. [/quote] Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 (edited) About Christianity and killing... Right, it's not a doctrine of our faith, is not supported in our teachings, and is not commanded in our scriptures. The same can't be said for Islam. And regarding those turbulent periods of Christian history when there were gross abuses, hundreds of years later we are still looking back and are ashamed. Because there were abuses. We own up to it. We don't condone it. Again, the same can't be said for Islam. It should be pointed out that not all "killings" by Christians were abuses, though. Not everything that transpired during the various crusades was unjust. The Muslims put the Christians through pure, living hell on earth and finally we fought back. It's also worth noting that when we finally DID fight back we did so long after the Muslim oppression was still going on. For example, Spain was under Islamic oppression for 700 years before the Crusaders finally liberated it. Our ancestors can't be accused of impatience, that's for sure. Personally, I wouldn't have given the Muslims 700 hours of that croutons, let alone 700 years. But that's just me. Edited May 23, 2008 by Madame Vengier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted May 23, 2008 Author Share Posted May 23, 2008 (edited) I created this thread simply to be informative, with the intention of exposing Catholics to programs broadcast in the Islamic world; but sadly, the thread has now been moved to the debate table. Edited May 23, 2008 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted May 23, 2008 Author Share Posted May 23, 2008 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1538113' date='May 22 2008, 08:18 PM']About Christianity and killing... Right, it's not a doctrine of our faith, is not supported in our teachings, and is not commanded in our scriptures. The same can't be said for Islam.[/quote] I agree. In the Gospels Christ never tells His followers to kill the innocent. [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1538113' date='May 22 2008, 08:18 PM']And regarding those turbulent periods of Christian history when there were gross abuses, hundreds of years later we are still looking back and are ashamed. Because there were abuses. We own up to it. We don't condone it.[/quote] Yes. Pope John Paul II asked for forgiveness in connection with the acts of those who in the name of Christ killed or persecuted innocent human beings. [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1538113' date='May 22 2008, 08:18 PM']Again, the same can't be said for Islam. It should be pointed out that not all "killings" by Christians were abuses, though. Not everything that transpired during the various crusades was unjust. The Muslims put the Christians through pure, living hell on earth and finally we fought back. It's also worth noting that when we finally DID fight back we do so long after the Muslim oppression was still going on. For example, Spain was under Islamic oppression for 700 years before the Crusaders finally liberated it. Our ancestors can't be accused of impatience, that's for sure. Personally, I wouldn't have given the Muslims 700 hours of that croutons, let alone 700 years. But that's just me. [/quote] Yes. The Crusades did not happen in a vacuum. They were a response to nearly 500 years of Islamic aggression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1538117' date='May 22 2008, 09:19 PM']I created this thread simply to be informative, with the intention of exposing Catholics to programs broadcast in the Islamic world; but sadly, the thread has now been moved to the debate table.[/quote] I showed this thread to a few people I know, and their general response is the Christians have done such wrongs to the Islamic world for so long that it is understandable that they want to fight back against us. And of the crusades, always the same old story as if the christians should have kept taking the abuse indefinately without ever standing up for ourselves. Sad.. Sad. And I suggest those who want to debate do so on another thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicWing Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 LouisvilleFan!! I am agree with you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 [quote name='Didacus' post='1538154' date='May 22 2008, 10:02 PM']I showed this thread to a few people I know, and their general response is the Christians have done such wrongs to the Islamic world for so long that it is understandable that they want to fight back against us. And of the crusades, always the same old story as if the christians should have kept taking the abuse indefinately without ever standing up for ourselves. Sad.. Sad.[/quote] Sad indeed. The West is ignorant and decadent and is calling for its own destruction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1538113' date='May 22 2008, 10:18 PM']About Christianity and killing... Right, it's not a doctrine of our faith, is not supported in our teachings, and is not commanded in our scriptures. The same can't be said for Islam. And regarding those turbulent periods of Christian history when there were gross abuses, hundreds of years later we are still looking back and are ashamed. Because there were abuses. We own up to it. We don't condone it. Again, the same can't be said for Islam. It should be pointed out that not all "killings" by Christians were abuses, though. Not everything that transpired during the various crusades was unjust. The Muslims put the Christians through pure, living hell on earth and finally we fought back. It's also worth noting that when we finally DID fight back we did so long after the Muslim oppression was still going on. For example, Spain was under Islamic oppression for 700 years before the Crusaders finally liberated it. Our ancestors can't be accused of impatience, that's for sure. Personally, I wouldn't have given the Muslims 700 hours of that croutons, let alone 700 years. But that's just me. [/quote] I have a few friends who mock me by saying "so, how do you explain the crusades? How was that a defencive measure when all those Europeans travelled to the Holy Land to fight a war? (they automatically assume its an offencive because they had to go and fight, not sit and fight)". They ignore the fact that it was the Muslims who struck first. I guess they should have expected Europe to sit and take a thrashing after the Holy Land fell. I have a pentecostal friend who goes, "Meh. I don't really care, I guess. If the crusades worked, they would have been right." lawl, how committal he is [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1538120' date='May 22 2008, 10:25 PM']I agree. In the Gospels Christ never tells His followers to kill the innocent. Yes. Pope John Paul II asked for forgiveness in connection with the acts of those who in the name of Christ killed or persecuted innocent human beings. Yes. The Crusades did not happen in a vacuum. They were a response to nearly 500 years of Islamic aggression.[/quote] That's a good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 [quote name='mortify' post='1538253' date='May 22 2008, 11:03 PM']Sad indeed. The West is ignorant and decadent and is calling for its own destruction.[/quote] Empires come and go, but the Church shall always remain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Didacus' post='1538464' date='May 23 2008, 06:36 AM']Empires come and go, but the Church shall always remain.[/quote] Amen! By the way I had to read a sociology paper for my anthropology course this last semester. I think every concientious Christian should read it. The author is obviously (and not surprisingly...) critical of the current American appoach to terrorism abroad...but the scariest thing is how 'not-radical' support for radical islam is throughout the Middle East. Genesis of suicide terrorism Scott Atran Science; Mar 7, 2003; 299, 5612; Research Library Core pg. 1534 Seriously, check it out...nothing is better than primary literature and nothing is worse than Barbara Walters & Kelly Rippa to learn the facts about the world. Edited May 23, 2008 by Veridicus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven77 Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Fairly stated. Thanks! [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1538113' date='May 22 2008, 09:18 PM']About Christianity and killing... Right, it's not a doctrine of our faith, is not supported in our teachings, and is not commanded in our scriptures. The same can't be said for Islam. And regarding those turbulent periods of Christian history when there were gross abuses, hundreds of years later we are still looking back and are ashamed. Because there were abuses. We own up to it. We don't condone it. Again, the same can't be said for Islam. It should be pointed out that not all "killings" by Christians were abuses, though. Not everything that transpired during the various crusades was unjust. The Muslims put the Christians through pure, living hell on earth and finally we fought back. It's also worth noting that when we finally DID fight back we did so long after the Muslim oppression was still going on. For example, Spain was under Islamic oppression for 700 years before the Crusaders finally liberated it. Our ancestors can't be accused of impatience, that's for sure. Personally, I wouldn't have given the Muslims 700 hours of that croutons, let alone 700 years. But that's just me. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven77 Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 I agree with these statements. [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1538120' date='May 22 2008, 09:25 PM']I agree. In the Gospels Christ never tells His followers to kill the innocent. Yes. Pope John Paul II asked for forgiveness in connection with the acts of those who in the name of Christ killed or persecuted innocent human beings. Yes. The Crusades did not happen in a vacuum. They were a response to nearly 500 years of Islamic aggression.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 [quote name='Veridicus' post='1538569' date='May 23 2008, 09:42 AM']Amen! By the way I had to read a sociology paper for my anthropology course this last semester. I think every concientious Christian should read it. The author is obviously (and not surprisingly...) critical of the current American appoach to terrorism abroad...but the scariest thing is how 'not-radical' support for radical islam is throughout the Middle East. Genesis of suicide terrorism Scott Atran Science; Mar 7, 2003; 299, 5612; Research Library Core pg. 1534 Seriously, check it out...nothing is better than primary literature and nothing is worse than Barbara Walters & Kelly Rippa to learn the facts about the world.[/quote] isbn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 [quote name='Didacus' post='1538464' date='May 23 2008, 06:36 AM']Empires come and go, but the Church shall always remain.[/quote] Yes, but that doesn't necessarily include the hierarchy or Church property etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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