Could Mary have sinned?

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='19 February 2010 - 09:02 PM' timestamp='1266631361' post='2059740']
Whether or not it seems logical to you, it is an ancient tradition of the Church that our Lady died before her Assumption. If she died, then she certainly experienced the effects of original sin.
[/quote]
For a start drop the attitude, if you initiate a conversation with me then we'll both refrain from taking little shots at eachother like "whether or not it seems logical to you". Secondly whether she died or not before the assumption is immaterial. I am asking how one can suffer the effects of something without the cause of the effects. By pointing to her death you haven't addressed this at all, just restated what you'd already said. Thirdly it is not an ancient tradition of the Church that Our Lady died before her assumption, whether she was dead or alive was never mentioned by Pius XII. Also, judging by most of the art work that depicts her assumption, many people believed that she was alive.

Edited February 20, 2010 by OraProMe

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='19 February 2010 - 07:14 PM' timestamp='1266628465' post='2059728']
Our Lady (if I am not mistaken) was free from original sin, but not from the effects thereof.
[/quote]

"We declare, pronounce and define that the doctrine which holds that the Blessed Virgin Mary, at the first instant of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace of the Omnipotent God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of mankind, was preserved immaculate from all stain of original sin, has been revealed by God, and therefore should firmly and constantly be believed by all the faithful."
—Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus, December 8, 1854


Are 'stains' and 'effects' the same thing? My understanding was that she was free from the effects of sin; that is Mary died in conformity to Christ rather than out of the just punishment of sin, but by virtue of her Immaculate Conception she was preserved from all corruption which typically occurs in the body after death. The Eastern Orthodox maintain that she laid in this incorrupt state for 3 days before being raised to heaven if I remember correctly.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Veridicus

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='19 February 2010 - 11:26 PM' timestamp='1266639978' post='2059791']
Thirdly it is not an ancient tradition of the Church that Our Lady died before her assumption, whether she was dead or alive was never mentioned by Pius XII.
[/quote]

"Thus St. John Damascene, an outstanding herald of this traditional truth, spoke out with powerful eloquence when he compared the bodily Assumption of the loving Mother of God with her other prerogatives and privileges. 'It was fitting that she, who had kept her virginity intact in childbirth, should keep her own body free from all corruption [b]even after death[/b]. It was fitting that she, who had carried the Creator as a child at her breast, should dwell in the divine tabernacles. It was fitting that the spouse, whom the Father had taken to himself, should live in the divine mansions. It was fitting that she, who had seen her Son upon the cross and who had thereby received into her heart the sword of sorrow which she had escaped in the act of giving birth to him, should look upon him as he sits with the Father. It was fitting that God's Mother should possess what belongs to her Son, and that she should be honored by every creature as the Mother and as the handmaid of God.'" (Pope Pius XII, Munificentissimus Deus, 21, my emphasis).

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='19 February 2010 - 10:41 PM' timestamp='1266640871' post='2059795']
My understanding was that she was free from the effects of sin; that is Mary died in conformity to Christ rather than out of the just punishment of sin, but by virtue of her Immaculate Conception she was preserved from all corruption which typically occurs in the body after death.
[/quote]


[quote name='Resurrexi' date='19 February 2010 - 10:55 PM' timestamp='1266641702' post='2059802']
"Thus St. John Damascene, an outstanding herald of this traditional truth, spoke out with powerful eloquence when he compared the bodily Assumption of the loving Mother of God with her other prerogatives and privileges. 'It was fitting that she, who had kept her virginity intact in childbirth, should keep her own body free from all corruption [b]even after death[/b]. It was fitting that she, who had carried the Creator as a child at her breast, should dwell in the divine tabernacles. It was fitting that the spouse, whom the Father had taken to himself, should live in the divine mansions. It was fitting that she, who had seen her Son upon the cross and who had thereby received into her heart the sword of sorrow which she had escaped in the act of giving birth to him, should look upon him as he sits with the Father. It was fitting that God's Mother should possess what belongs to her Son, and that she should be honored by every creature as the Mother and as the handmaid of God.'" (Pope Pius XII, Munificentissimus Deus, 21, my emphasis).
[/quote]


The Magesterial authority of the Church just states it so much better than me.

[Resurrexi]

The Death of the Virgin was a popular theme in Medieval (and even Renaissance) art.

[img]http://www.eng.fju.edu.tw/English_Literature/17th_c/paintings/virgin.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.bestpriceart.com/vault/abc_goes3.JPG[/img]

[img]http://www.lib-art.com/imgpainting/2/7/14672-the-death-of-the-virgin-hans-multscher.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.museum-replicas.com/images/productimages/large/Death%20of%20the%20Virgin,%20Rijksmuseum%20.%20Amsterdam-r.JPG[/img]

[reyb]

[quote name='Cam42' date='08 November 2005 - 09:41 PM' timestamp='1131504093' post='783226']
You have spken to my point exactly....where is the theology? Rather than discuss the theological implications of this discussion, you would rather wallow in the English semantics.

Mary could not have sinned. The theology stands up.....
[/quote]

Before we discuss Mary's Freewill (to sin or not to sin or whatever) Can you please show in the scripture that Mary is 'sinless'?

[Veridicus]

[quote name='reyb' date='19 February 2010 - 11:16 PM' timestamp='1266643007' post='2059818']
Before we discuss Mary's Freewill (to sin or not to sin or whatever) Can you please show in the scripture that Mary [s]is 'sinless'[/s]sinned?
[/quote]

Ditto.





and to Rexi: While I agree that Mary died, I still don't think that Mary's 'death' was at all like any death we have had experience with in our lives...is the word "Dormition" (as Easterners call it) more appropriate to emphasize the difference between corrupting death and Mary's death?

Edited February 20, 2010 by Veridicus

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='reyb' date='20 February 2010 - 12:16 AM' timestamp='1266643007' post='2059818']
Before we discuss Mary's Freewill (to sin or not to sin or whatever) Can you please show in the scripture that Mary is 'sinless'?
[/quote]

"Ave, gratia plena, Dominus tecum; benedicta tu in mulieribus" (Luke 1:28).

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='19 February 2010 - 08:14 PM' timestamp='1266628465' post='2059728']
Our Lady (if I am not mistaken) was free from original sin, but not from the effects thereof.
[/quote]

Obviously she suffered from the effects of others' original and personal sins, but I've always heard that she was free from the effects of original sin (for instance, pangs of childbirth). Honestly I don't think it makes sense to say she had concupiscence if she didn't also have original sin. They go hand-in-hand.

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='19 February 2010 - 09:02 PM' timestamp='1266631361' post='2059740']
Whether or not it seems logical to you, it is an ancient tradition of the Church that our Lady died before her Assumption. If she died, then she certainly experienced the effects of original sin.
[/quote]

I don't think it is logical to say that she did die. The argument I hear most is that she wanted to be like her Son in all things, but I think that is a weak argument. It seems much more proper theologically to say that she didn't; however, I do know that many great theologians say that she did. Ultimately I submit myself to the Church's authority, and she (the Church) has left the question of Mary's death open. I choose to believe that she was Assumed into Heaven without experiencing death.

[Ed Normile]

Mary was preserved from all stain of sin, and she chose to remain free from all stain of sin.

ed

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='19 February 2010 - 11:55 PM' timestamp='1266641702' post='2059802']
"Thus St. John Damascene, an outstanding herald of this traditional truth, spoke out with powerful eloquence when he compared the bodily Assumption of the loving Mother of God with her other prerogatives and privileges. 'It was fitting that she, who had kept her virginity intact in childbirth, should keep her own body free from all corruption [b]even after death[/b]. It was fitting that she, who had carried the Creator as a child at her breast, should dwell in the divine tabernacles. It was fitting that the spouse, whom the Father had taken to himself, should live in the divine mansions. It was fitting that she, who had seen her Son upon the cross and who had thereby received into her heart the sword of sorrow which she had escaped in the act of giving birth to him, should look upon him as he sits with the Father. It was fitting that God's Mother should possess what belongs to her Son, and that she should be honored by every creature as the Mother and as the handmaid of God.'" (Pope Pius XII, Munificentissimus Deus, 21, my emphasis).
[/quote]

It was not specified whether she suffered death or not in the dogmatic definition by Pius XII and you know as well as I do that there are many works of art that portray her as alive during her assumption. You keep dodging the question, how can one suffer the effects without the cause?

[Apotheoun]

The Eastern Churches are unanimous in their testimony that the Theotokos died a natural death. In fact, the original name of the feast, [i]Dormition[/i], which is maintained in the Eastern Churches to this day, means "falling asleep"; and moreover, the icon of the feast depicts the separation of Mary's soul, which is shown as a small child held by Christ, from her body.

According to the Byzantine tradition the [i]Dormition[/i] (on 15 August) commemorates the Virgin's death, while her resurrection and assumption are celebrated three days later.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Apotheoun

[infinitelord1]

Im just kinda jumpin into this thread as always....

i think mary was capable of sinning and probably did, at times, throughout her life. the reason why i think this is because only God is perfect. i think that if Mary was not capable of sinning then she would be God. Its very likely that she did not commit sexual sin...but as an overall person...im sure she sinned at times in her life....just my opinion...i really have no evidence to back it up.

[KnightofChrist]

Mary could have sinned but did not. Eve could have sinned and did. Both were made prefect, and both full of grace one kept her grace the other fell from it.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

It is not defined that the Blessed Virgin died, however, it does represent the much larger portion of the sensus fidelium.

As for whether she experienced concupiscence, she was conceived in the state of original justice and holiness, which means that she did not experience concupiscence, disordered passions, etc. However, she did experience (or was capable of experiencing) the temporal punishments of the first sin, such as illness and death.

Not having concupiscence, however, does not mean that a person doesn't have the ability to sin. Adam and Eve were made without concupiscence and still chose sin.

That said, it bring us back to the agreement Ja[i][/i]ime, Cam42, and I came to in this thread (I much later than they, since I was confused).

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='20 February 2010 - 11:48 AM' timestamp='1266684525' post='2059948']
Mary could have sinned but did not. Eve could have sinned and did. Both were made prefect, and both full of grace one kept her grace the other fell from it.
[/quote]
The grace of Mary was greater than the grace of Eve, but if by "could have sinned" you mean "had the power to sin" and not that God's foreknowledge could have been wrong that she would not sin, then yes, I agree.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='20 February 2010 - 04:26 AM' timestamp='1266661593' post='2059888']
The Eastern Churches are unanimous in their testimony that the Theotokos died a natural death. In fact, the original name of the feast, [i]Dormition[/i], which is maintained in the Eastern Churches to this day, means "falling asleep"; and moreover, the icon of the feast depicts the separation of Mary's soul, which is shown as a small child held by Christ, from her body.

According to the Byzantine tradition the [i]Dormition[/i] (on 15 August) commemorates the Virgin's death, while her resurrection and assumption are celebrated three days later.
[/quote]

I was under the impression that after her death/dormition Mary's body experienced no corruption (during that period of time between her death and her assumption). If her Soul was fully separated from her body, would not her body have decayed in the way all matter bereft of an animating substance decays? Or am I just trapped hopelessly in Western concepts of Animus?

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Raphael' date='20 February 2010 - 11:04 AM' timestamp='1266685455' post='2059955']
The grace of Mary was greater than the grace of Eve, but if by "could have sinned" you mean "had the power to sin" and not that God's foreknowledge could have been wrong that she would not sin, then yes, I agree.
[/quote]

Arguments about the infalliblility of God's foreknowledge and how it plays out in our present space/time always make me think of that scene in Minority Report where Tom Cruise's character rolls the ball across the table and as it falls off the edge Colin Ferrel's character reaches down and catches it. Cruise's character asks the other why he grabbed the ball and he replies "Because it was going to fall". Its all about perspective.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='20 February 2010 - 12:18 PM' timestamp='1266686320' post='2059961']
Arguments about the infalliblility of God's foreknowledge and how it plays out in our present space/time always make me think of that scene in Minority Report where Tom Cruise's character rolls the ball across the table and as it falls off the edge Colin Ferrel's character reaches down and catches it. Cruise's character asks the other why he grabbed the ball and he replies "Because it was going to fall". Its all about perspective.
[/quote]
I always work by remembering that God is outside of time, which means in a sense that if we laid out the entire timeline of history on a table, God could walk all around it. He can stand at the end of the timeline and see what we have done and will have done in the future and then walk to the front of the timeline to give us what we need in order to do it. It's still us doing it freely, but He is able to see what we will do in the future with the same kind of certainty we have only after the fact.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Raphael' date='20 February 2010 - 01:04 PM' timestamp='1266685455' post='2059955']
The grace of Mary was greater than the grace of Eve, but if by "could have sinned" you mean "had the power to sin" and not that God's foreknowledge could have been wrong that she would not sin, then yes, I agree.
[/quote]
If Eve was in the Garden of Eden - Paradise - how could Mary have more grace then Eve? Wouldn't it be the same?