Could Mary have sinned?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='20 February 2010 - 06:35 PM' timestamp='1266716151' post='2060167']
Apo what you quoted had two sentences with each sentence containing two juxtaposed possibilities. Are you stating that you feel it is part of Tradition that she died due to inheriting mortality from the ancestral sin?
[/quote]
Yes, that is my take on it.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='20 February 2010 - 07:38 PM' timestamp='1266716302' post='2060170']
Yes, that is my take on it.
[/quote]

Thank you. I'll brew on that for a while and hopefully my head doesn't explode like that guy on Scanners.

Btw, you really are a boon to the phorum.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='20 February 2010 - 06:44 PM' timestamp='1266716692' post='2060171']
Btw, you really are a boon to the phorum.
[/quote]
Thank you for your kind remark . . . although I am sure that there are a few people here who would disagree with you.

[add]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='20 February 2010 - 09:33 PM' timestamp='1266715987' post='2060163']
Haha. I'm deferring the Trinity until, by the grace of God, I behold the Beatific Vision and then I have eternity to grow in knowledge and love. FOR NOW, I'm just trying to figure out WHY Mary died.
[/quote]

did Mary die?
what of this holy day of obligation, 15 August: the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assumption_of_the_Blessed_Virgin_Mary"]Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary[/url] all about then?

[Veridicus]

[quote name='apparently' date='20 February 2010 - 07:54 PM' timestamp='1266717257' post='2060178']
did Mary die?
what of this holy day of obligation, 15 August: the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assumption_of_the_Blessed_Virgin_Mary"]Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary[/url] all about then?
[/quote]

I'm reasonably sure this was covered in the preceding few pages of this thread. Mary died and the dogmatic definition of the Assumption doesn't contradict this. Her death has never been officially codified in the Western Church and the concept of her bodily Assumption without death is are more recent theological view than the more ancient tradition of the Eastern Orthodox that she lay dead and incorrupt for three days before her Assumption.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Veridicus

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='20 February 2010 - 06:57 PM' timestamp='1266717458' post='2060182']
. . . than the more ancient tradition of the Eastern Orthodox [b]and Eastern Catholics[/b] that she lay dead and incorrupt for three days before her Assumption.
[/quote]

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='20 February 2010 - 08:57 PM' timestamp='1266717458' post='2060182']
Her death has never been officially codified in the Western Church and the concept of her bodily Assumption without death is are more recent theological view than the more ancient tradition of the Eastern Orthodox that she lay dead and incorrupt for three days before her Assumption.
[/quote]

Pius XII agrees multiple times with statements that our Lady did die (see [i]Munificentissimus Deus[/i], 17, 21, 35). While our Lady's death was not infallibly defined, it was certainly taught.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Resurrexi

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='20 February 2010 - 07:47 PM' timestamp='1266716857' post='2060175']
. . . than the more ancient tradition of the Eastern Orthodox [b]and Eastern Catholics[/b] that she lay dead and incorrupt for three days before her Assumption.
[/quote]
Them too of course.

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='20 February 2010 - 08:15 PM' timestamp='1266718536' post='2060193']
Pius XII agrees multiple times with statements that our Lady did die (see [i]Munificentissimus Deus[/i], 17, 21, 35). While our Lady's death was not infallibly defined, it was certainly taught.
[/quote]

I stand corrected.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Veridicus

[add]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='20 February 2010 - 10:15 PM' timestamp='1266718536' post='2060193']
Pius XII agrees multiple times with statements that our Lady did die (see [i]Munificentissimus Deus[/i], 17, 21, 35). While our Lady's death was not infallibly defined, it was certainly taught.
[/quote]

In this dogmatic statement, the phrase "having completed the course of her earthly life", leaves open the question of whether the Virgin Mary died before her assumption or whether she was assumed before death; both possibilities are allowed.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='apparently' date='20 February 2010 - 08:18 PM' timestamp='1266718719' post='2060196']
In this dogmatic statement, the phrase "having completed the course of her earthly life", leaves open the question of whether the Virgin Mary died before her assumption or whether she was assumed before death; both possibilities are allowed.
[/quote]

I agree. I do not think in the West that it is a matter of Faith to have to believe one way or the other. I tend to side with the more ancient tradition of the Eastern Orthodox [b]AND EASTERN CATHOLICS[/b] on this one. Rexi's point is that it has been stated implicitly (and perhaps explicitly) by people in authority that Mary died and thus her death has been codified in some sense but not infallibly defined.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Veridicus

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='apparently' date='20 February 2010 - 09:18 PM' timestamp='1266718719' post='2060196']
In this dogmatic statement, the phrase "having completed the course of her earthly life", leaves open the question of whether the Virgin Mary died before her assumption or whether she was assumed before death; both possibilities are allowed.
[/quote]

While only one sentence of the document is an infallible dogmatic definition, the rest of the teachings found therein are still binding upon the faithful.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Resurrexi

[Veridicus]

[quote]
"Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten your Son our Lord incarnate from herself."
[/quote]

As I always say, "If it's good enough for Adrian I, it's good enough for me!"

Edited February 21, 2010 by Veridicus

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='20 February 2010 - 09:35 PM' timestamp='1266719740' post='2060209']
As I always say, "If it's good enough for Adrian I, it's good enough for me!"
[/quote]

Good enough for him, as well as for John Damascene, Francis de Sales, and Alphonsus de Liguori.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='20 February 2010 - 08:38 PM' timestamp='1266719927' post='2060213']
Good enough for him, as well as for John Damascene, Francis de Sales, and Alphonsus de Liguori.
[/quote]

Yeah they're okay too.

[Veridicus]

My wife says she can't remember if Fulton Sheen said anything substantial about this in his quintessential book on Mary, "The World's First Love". This is unfortunate as I would love to know what he thought about all of this. I bet his opinion is somewheres...

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='apparently' date='20 February 2010 - 07:18 PM' timestamp='1266718719' post='2060196']
In this dogmatic statement, the phrase "having completed the course of her earthly life", leaves open the question of whether the Virgin Mary died before her assumption or whether she was assumed before death; both possibilities are allowed.
[/quote]
Perhaps that is so for Western Christians, but anyone who knows the prayers of the Byzantine Rite feast of the Dormition knows that the same latitude is not given to Eastern Christians. The prayers of the Byzantine liturgy affirm the death of the Theotokos as historical fact, and even speaks about the Apostles placing her body in the tomb for three days.

It would be most disrespectful of the Apostles to bury her alive.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Slappo]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='19 February 2010 - 08:55 PM' timestamp='1266641702' post='2059802']
"Thus St. John Damascene, an outstanding herald of this traditional truth, spoke out with powerful eloquence when he compared the bodily Assumption of the loving Mother of God with her other prerogatives and privileges. 'It was fitting that she, who had kept her virginity intact in childbirth, should keep her own body free from all corruption [b]even after death[/b]. It was fitting that she, who had carried the Creator as a child at her breast, should dwell in the divine tabernacles. It was fitting that the spouse, whom the Father had taken to himself, should live in the divine mansions. It was fitting that she, who had seen her Son upon the cross and who had thereby received into her heart the sword of sorrow which she had escaped in the act of giving birth to him, should look upon him as he sits with the Father. It was fitting that God's Mother should possess what belongs to her Son, and that she should be honored by every creature as the Mother and as the handmaid of God.'" (Pope Pius XII, Munificentissimus Deus, 21, my emphasis).
[/quote]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='19 February 2010 - 06:02 PM' timestamp='1266631361' post='2059740']
Whether or not it seems logical to you, it is an ancient tradition of the Church that our Lady died before her Assumption. If she died, then she certainly experienced the effects of original sin.
[/quote]

This is a fallacy. Certainty to Mary's death does not lead to certainty to her experiencing the effects of original sin. The effects of original sin are corruption of the body. This is why we die today, a breakdown of cells, organs, etc, eventually leading inevitably to death.

That Mary died does not mean she died from corruption. There are several other possible means of death (although most highly unlikely/impossible for Mary) that do not include the breakdown of the body: Murder, falling out a window, killed by an animal, etc. One of these that I've heard as a possibility for Mary would be: Dying of pure ecstasy/love for God. I've heard stories (if they are true I know not) of saints/others that literally died of ecstasy.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='20 February 2010 - 07:01 PM' timestamp='1266721289' post='2060229']
Perhaps that is so for Western Christians, but anyone who knows the prayers of the Byzantine Rite feast of the Dormition knows that the same latitude is not given to Eastern Christians. The prayers of the Byzantine liturgy affirm the death of the Theotokos as historical fact, and even speaks about the Apostles placing her body in the tomb for three days.

It would be most disrespectful of the Apostles to bury her alive.
[/quote]

I too believe in Mary's death, as to how she died I know not.

But... lex orandi lex credendi. I would have no qualms with attending a Byzantine Liturgy on the feast of the Dormition.

[Apotheoun]

I think people are over thinking the issue. Mortality - according to scripture (see Roman 5:12) - is an effect of the ancestral sin, but just because a person is mortal it does not follow that he is sinful. After all, Christ assumed our mortal condition.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Slappo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='20 February 2010 - 07:10 PM' timestamp='1266721809' post='2060237']
I think people are over thinking the issue. Mortality - according to scripture (see Roman 5:12) - is an effect of the ancestral sin, but just because a person is mortal it does not follow that he is sinful. After all, Christ assumed our mortal condition.
[/quote]

Although he is by no means infallible, Hahn's interpretation of Genesis 2 is that Satan threatened to kill Adam and Eve if they did not partake of the fruit.

Satan's threat would be no threat at all if the immortality of Original Man included no possibility at all of physical death.


EDIT: I should add. I've seen definitions of immortality that mean one cannot die whatsoever, and definitions that mean one is not liable to corruption.

See Highlander for example

Edited February 21, 2010 by Slappo