Could Mary have sinned?

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Slappo' date='20 February 2010 - 09:17 PM' timestamp='1266722275' post='2060242']
Although he is by no means infallible, Hahn's interpretation of Genesis 2 is that Satan threatened to kill Adam and Eve if they did not partake of the fruit.
Satan's threat would be no threat at all if the immortality of Original Man included no possibility at all of physical death.
[/quote]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='20 February 2010 - 07:22 PM' timestamp='1266715367' post='2060149']
Adam and Eve were created innocent, but with the potential to become likened unto God, i.e., a likening ([i]omoiosis[/i]) that includes immortality. In other words,[b] if they had not committed the original sin, they would have become immortal,[/b] and they would have had the ability to pass that characteristic on to their descendants. Mortality is - according to Sacred Scripture and the Holy Fathers - an effect of the ancestral sin.
[/quote]

If I'm understanding Apo's line of reasoning here, our First Parents were not in fact immortal when they fell, but such immoratality would have been a fruit of their continued existence and theosis.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='20 February 2010 - 07:32 PM' timestamp='1266723153' post='2060247']
If I'm understanding Apo's line of reasoning here, our First Parents were not in fact immortal when they fell, but such immoratality would have been a fruit of their continued existence and theosis.
[/quote]

My question though, is what was the extent of their immortality? In other words: If they resisted Satan and did not sin, could the serpent have physically killed Adam/Eve (assuming God permitted it).

[Apotheoun]

In Byzantine theology a distinction is made between man's being created in the image of God ([i]eikon Theô[/i]), and his being made in the divine likeness ([i]omoíosis Theô[/i]). The former quality - as an essential property of human nature - was possessed by Adam in full act from the first moment of his existence, while the latter quality was given to him only in potency, a potency that could only fulfilled by living a life of virtue in synergy with the divine energy. Now of course as the Genesis narrative reveals, Adam failed to "liken" (Gr., [i]omoiosis[/i], i.e., assimilate) himself to God, and by his failure he brought death to himself and to all of his descendants.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='20 February 2010 - 08:32 PM' timestamp='1266723153' post='2060247']
If I'm understanding Apo's line of reasoning here, our First Parents were not in fact immortal when they fell, but such immoratality would have been a fruit of their continued existence and theosis.
[/quote]
Yes. According to the Eastern Fathers our first parents possessed the potential to become immortal, but this potential could only become actual by living virtuously. Alas, by their disobedience Adam and Eve corrupted themselves, and they passed this mortal condition on to their descendants.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='20 February 2010 - 07:35 PM' timestamp='1266723309' post='2060250']
In Byzantine theology a distinction is made between man's being created in the image of God ([i]eikon Theô[/i]), and his being made in the divine likeness ([i]omoíosis Theô[/i]). The former quality as an essential property of human nature was possessed by Adam in full act from the first moment of his existence, while the latter quality was given to him only in potency, a potency that could only fulfilled by living a life of virtue in synergy with the divine energy. Now of course as the Genesis narrative reveals, Adam failed to "liken" (Gr., [i]omoiosis[/i], i.e., assimilate) himself to God, and by his failure he brought death to himself and to all of his descendants.
[/quote]

Understood.


This still doesn't answer my question though. Could Adam and Eve, if they had kept [i]eikon Theô[/i], have been physically killed.


Edit: Just saw your second post. Please define the term immortal. My curiosity is if you mean free of corruption, or actually free from any possibility of death.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Slappo

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Slappo' date='20 February 2010 - 08:39 PM' timestamp='1266723543' post='2060256']
This still doesn't answer my question though. Could Adam and Eve, if they had kept [i]eikon Theô[/i], have been physically killed.
[/quote]
Yes, they could be killed, because they only were potentially immortal.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Slappo' date='20 February 2010 - 08:39 PM' timestamp='1266723543' post='2060256']
Edit: Just saw your second post. Please define the term immortal. My curiosity is if you mean free of corruption, or actually free from any possibility of death.
[/quote]
Immortality, which is unending life, is a divine energy, and as such it is quality that is proper to God alone, but it can be experienced by man as a gracious gift of God, who gives man the power to participate in His own immortal being.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='20 February 2010 - 07:45 PM' timestamp='1266723958' post='2060260']
Immortality, which is unending life, is a divine energy, and as such it is quality that is proper to God alone, but it can be experienced by man as a gracious gift of God, who gives man the power to participate in His own immortal being.
[/quote]

So Mary could have died from God removing this grace from her?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Slappo' date='20 February 2010 - 08:56 PM' timestamp='1266724598' post='2060261']
So Mary could have died from God removing this grace from her?
[/quote]
Mary died because she - like all of Adam's descendants (including Christ) - was born mortal, while she was resurrected on the third day after her death because she was full of grace and lived a life of virtue.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Slappo' date='20 February 2010 - 09:56 PM' timestamp='1266724598' post='2060261']
So Mary could have died from God removing this grace from her?
[/quote]

Or the grace was never potentiated in Mary. That was my question in a few pages back. Could Mary not have acquired through her unmatched virtuousness the immortality that was potential in Eve?

[Apotheoun]

Christ - in His humanity - was not born immortal, but only became immortal as man after His resurrection.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='20 February 2010 - 09:59 PM' timestamp='1266724798' post='2060265']
Mary died because she - like all of Adam's descendants (including Christ) - was born mortal, while she was resurrected on the third day after her death because she was full of grace and lived a life of virtue.
[/quote]

I feel like throughout the last few pages of this thread we are bordering on the necessity to address the variance in understanding between the East & West concerning the effect of the ancestral sin (namely mortality, concupiscence, etc). But as that is likely to not be a fruitful exercise we are just going to have to keep straining to understand.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='20 February 2010 - 10:03 PM' timestamp='1266724980' post='2060267']
Christ - in His humanity - was not born immortal, but only became immortal as man after His resurrection.
[/quote]

So all who live, including Mary, must die in conformity to Christ's pattern of entering into IMmortality? What about those who live at the time of the Great Parousia; will that be the exception or will they die and then be immediately (or 3 days later?) raised?

Edited February 21, 2010 by Veridicus

[Apotheoun]

The key factor that must be constantly borne in mind is the fact that the feast of the Dormition ([i]Koimesis[/i]) as it developed in the East commemorates the death of the Theotokos. When the Western Church later adopted this feast it combined the Dormition with the resurrection and assumption of the Virgin into one liturgical commemoration.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='20 February 2010 - 10:07 PM' timestamp='1266725229' post='2060272']
The key factor that must be constantly borne in mind is the fact that the feast of the Dormition ([i]Koimesis[/i]) as it developed in the East commemorates the death of the Theotokos. When the Western Church later adopted this feast it combined the Dormition with the resurrection and assumption of the Virgin into one commemoration.
[/quote]

I wonder what the Non-Chalcedonians think...

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='20 February 2010 - 09:13 PM' timestamp='1266725596' post='2060273']
I wonder what the Non-Chalcedonians think...
[/quote]
As I understand it, there is no difference (except of course for the liturgical form of the prayers, which is dependent upon the rite) between the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox on the celebration of the Dormition.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Apotheoun

[mortify]

I think Divine Grace and Mary's disposition would have made sin impossible for her

[Veridicus]

[quote name='mortify' date='20 February 2010 - 10:30 PM' timestamp='1266726612' post='2060280']
I think Divine Grace and Mary's disposition would have made sin impossible for her
[/quote]

Contrast this with Eve's condition for me.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='mortify' date='21 February 2010 - 12:30 AM' timestamp='1266726612' post='2060280']
I think Divine Grace and Mary's disposition would have made sin impossible for her
[/quote]
No, as a human being she had free will. Not sinning was her choice.

[KnightofChrist]

If Mary could not have sinned this takes away the importance of her obedience. Without the ability to not to obey she becomes an automaton of sorts which had no choice but to follow her preset programming.