Could Mary have sinned?

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='19 February 2010 - 02:21 PM' timestamp='1266607262' post='2059573']
Christ could not have sinned because he was also fully divine. I think the proper term is Christ had "impeccability".

I think Mary, like Eve, could have sinned after her conception; however Mary, to her merit, was conformed so fully to God's will that her Fiat was the most natural response imaginable for her. I think this is as deep as we really need to consider it. In my opinion, speculating whether she was incapable of sin in terms of some cosmic perspective outside of space/time only obfuscates her sanctity by seemingly reducing her Fiat to that of an automaton. I do not think anything is detracted from Christ by giving Mary the honor of her free-will cooperation in the plan of salvation which was aided by the grace of Christ; while stating she 'could not have sinned' does detract from the merit of her cooperation.

That's my $0.02

I'd rather fall on the side of giving my Mother too much credit; I think Jesus would too.
[/quote]

I was thinking more about this, and realized the important distinction in the wording of the question: the question is "Could Mary have sinned?"; not "Did Mary sin". I believe that I agree with your line of thinking, especially about wanting to make her more than an automaton.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='20 February 2010 - 01:50 PM' timestamp='1266695457' post='2060017']
Micah will eventually be correct in saying that Apo is correct. (a little Minority Report effect to this post)
[/quote]

The fact that he predicted Apo's correctness did not in fact prevent Apo's possible incorrectness. Although in this case, I believe, with Micah, that Apo was in fact correct.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='20 February 2010 - 04:49 AM' timestamp='1266659353' post='2059887']
It was not specified whether she suffered death or not in the dogmatic definition by Pius XII and you know as well as I do that there are many works of art that portray her as alive during her assumption.
[/quote]

Of course our Lady was alive during her Assumption. She had to be resurrected first.

The Dormition of the Theotokos one of the Twelve Great Feasts in the Byzantine liturgical calendar.

Pope Pius XII quoted St. John Damascene, who stated that our Lady died, as an authority on the Assumption.

[OraProMe]

Rex,

Once again you've dodged the question. How can one suffer the effects of something if the cause is absent?

[add]

yes, every human has free will... but as far as what i know or have been led to believe, she could not.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='20 February 2010 - 07:36 PM' timestamp='1266712577' post='2060122']
Rex,

Once again you've dodged the question. How can one suffer the effects of something if the cause is absent?
[/quote]

By the Church saying so.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Resurrexi

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='20 February 2010 - 07:56 PM' timestamp='1266713764' post='2060130']
By the Church saying so.

[/quote]

Faith and reason go hand in hand. Accepting something just because the Church says so is in no way a Catholic position. But each to their own.

God Bless you Rexi

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='20 February 2010 - 06:57 PM' timestamp='1266713877' post='2060131']
Faith and reason go hand in hand. Accepting something just because the Church says so is in no way a Catholic position. But each to their own.

God Bless you Rexi
[/quote]
It's a darn good default though, as you work on forming your intellect.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='20 February 2010 - 07:57 PM' timestamp='1266713877' post='2060131']
Accepting something just because the Church says so is in no way a Catholic position.
[/quote]

Yes, it is.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='20 February 2010 - 05:36 PM' timestamp='1266712577' post='2060122']
Rex,

Once again you've dodged the question. How can one suffer the effects of something if the cause is absent?
[/quote]
He has not dodged the question. The Theotokos died, and that is what the feast of the Dormition itself commemorates, and then on the third day after her death she was resurrected and taken up into heaven.

Edit: Her living soul, which is depicted in the icons of the Dormition as a small child, is taken by Christ immediately into the vision of God, while her body awaits the resurrection for three days in the tomb.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='20 February 2010 - 08:00 PM' timestamp='1266714029' post='2060134']
Yes, it is.
[/quote]

Vatican II, basing itself on St. Thomas Aquinas, states that man must follow his well formed conscience in all things. St Thomas actually says that if a man cannot honestly give an assent of faith to the dogma of Christ's divinity then he has more chance of saving his soul by leaving the Church than remaining inside Her. Frankly I'm very turned off by your fundamentalist view of Catholicism which suspends logic. The whole "leap of faith" thing is a Kierkegaardian concept that is not espoused by the Church.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='20 February 2010 - 08:07 PM' timestamp='1266714431' post='2060139']
Vatican II, basing itself on St. Thomas Aquinas, states that man must follow his well formed conscience in all things. St Thomas actually says that if a man cannot honestly give an assent of faith to the dogma of Christ's divinity then he has more chance of saving his soul by leaving the Church than remaining inside Her.
[/quote]

Source both of those. I want quotes and page or paragraph numbers.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='20 February 2010 - 08:09 PM' timestamp='1266714592' post='2060141']
Source both of those. I want quotes and page or paragraph numbers.
[/quote]

With that demanding tone? I don't think so mate. You can do your own research. Start off with fides et ratio and Vatican II's declaration on religious liberty.

[Apotheoun]

The First Vatican Council, regardless of whether one holds it to be ecumenical or not, does not support the idea that the act of faith is made by a man because he finds revealed truth to be convincing through the light of natural reason, but is made instead because of the authority of God, Who can neither deceive nor be deceived ([i]Dei Filius[/i], no. 3).

Faith, as a divine gift, is meta-rational.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='20 February 2010 - 06:56 PM' timestamp='1266713764' post='2060130']
Christ, Who was absolutely perfect and completely free from all sin, suffered death, with is an effect of original sin.
[/quote]

While I agree that Mary died, you have not convinced me that she died as an [i]effect [/i]of Original Sin despite her being preserved from all [i]stain [/i]of Original Sin. Christ who was without sin took all sin onto himself in his Passion & Death. Mary's death lacks this significant distinction.

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='20 February 2010 - 07:04 PM' timestamp='1266714242' post='2060138']
Her living soul, which is depicted in the icons of the Dormition as a small child, is taken by Christ immediately into the vision of God, while her body awaits the resurrection for three days in the tomb.
[/quote]

Is the significance of her remaining dead for 3 days to demonstrate how close her conformity to Christ was even in death? Or is it a matter of deferring the rapidity of her resurrection so that she didn't resurrect faster than Jesus sort of thing? I have no problem accepting that she was dead for three days...I just wonder the theological significance of the time period verses her dying and immediately being resurrected and assumed.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Veridicus