Could Mary have sinned?

[mortify]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='20 February 2010 - 11:34 PM' timestamp='1266726898' post='2060283']
Contrast this with Eve's condition for me.
[/quote]

I think Mary's state was something greater than that of Eve's.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='mortify' date='21 February 2010 - 02:49 PM' timestamp='1266785352' post='2060611']
I think Mary's state was something greater than that of Eve's.
[/quote]

In terms of nature or preternatural grace?

[SaintOfVirtue]

For what its worth: Mary [i]could have[/i] sinned should she have chosen to. Too deny this truth, would be to deny the presence of Mary's free will. The Sacred Mother, had free will just like you and me but she [i]chose[/i] God rather than sin.
Mary must have suffered temptation, just as Jesus did in the Gospel yesterday. I make this hypothesis based on the fact that the devil would have probably gone as far as God would allow him, in trying to foil God's own plan for Mary. It would have been very beneficial for the devil to take Mary out of the game. While I can think of no scripture verses that back my stance on Mary being tempted; doesn't it follow by reason that if the devil is bold enough to tempt his own Creator, he is bold enough to tempt the Mother of his Creator? Further, does it not also follow by reason, that if the Lord should [i]allow[/i] himself to be tested, He might also [i]allow[/i] Mary to be tested?

[Veridicus]

[quote name='SaintOfVirtue' date='22 February 2010 - 11:28 PM' timestamp='1266902924' post='2061687']
For what its worth: Mary [i]could have[/i] sinned should she have chosen to. Too deny this truth, would be to deny the presence of Mary's free will. The Sacred Mother, had free will just like you and me but she [i]chose[/i] God rather than sin.
Mary must have suffered temptation, just as Jesus did in the Gospel yesterday. I make this hypothesis based on the fact that the devil would have probably gone as far as God would allow him, in trying to foil God's own plan for Mary. It would have been very beneficial for the devil to take Mary out of the game. While I can think of no scripture verses that back my stance on Mary being tempted; doesn't it follow by reason that if the devil is bold enough to tempt his own Creator, he is bold enough to tempt the Mother of his Creator? Further, does it not also follow by reason, that if the Lord should [i]allow[/i] himself to be tested, He might also [i]allow[/i] Mary to be tested?
[/quote]

The Devil did go after Eve in the Garden. It would make sense that he would go after Mary as well; although with the possible exception of Revelation 12 I am not familiar with any scripture verses that could potentially be interpreted to support this.

[scardella]

Wow... this thread is back from the dead.

Just like Jesus! (Mary I will not comment on.)

[mortify]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='23 February 2010 - 12:00 AM' timestamp='1266901245' post='2061663']
In terms of nature or preternatural grace?
[/quote]

Natural, preternatural, and supernatural.

Why do you think Mary has to be an exact replica of Eve? The Second Adam is greater than the first, and the redeemed state is greater than the state of original justice.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='mortify' date='23 February 2010 - 01:31 PM' timestamp='1266953470' post='2061958']
Natural, preternatural, and supernatural.

Why do you think Mary has to be an exact replica of Eve? The Second Adam is greater than the first, and the redeemed state is greater than the state of original justice.
[/quote]


I do not think Mary has to be an exact replica of Eve. Just trying to get a feel for your meaning. Hence the questions.

[kafka]

[quote name='mortify' date='21 February 2010 - 03:49 PM' timestamp='1266785352' post='2060611']
I think Mary's state was something greater than that of Eve's.
[/quote]


[quote name='mortify' date='23 February 2010 - 02:31 PM' timestamp='1266953470' post='2061958']
Natural, preternatural, and supernatural.

Why do you think Mary has to be an exact replica of Eve? The Second Adam is greater than the first, and the redeemed state is greater than the state of original justice.
[/quote]
I agree with you. Though trying to present this takes volumes. Its a real difficult question to answer and I think Conte is on to it.

Although I would suggest that original state of justice flowed from Christ's salvific Death as well. Everyone's salvation flows from Christ, even the Angels depend on Christ for their salvation.

Edited February 24, 2010 by kafka

[kafka]

[quote name='Slappo' date='21 February 2010 - 12:16 AM' timestamp='1266729367' post='2060311']
I think the bolded makes the above statement true. Mary's disposition to divine grace did make sin impossible for her, because [b]she constantly chose to dispose herself to divine grace at all moments[/b] of her life. And simultaneously by choosing to constantly dispose herself to divine grace she was choosing not to sin.
[/quote]
the problem with this is that to constantly choose to dispose oneself to Divine Grace at all moments is a unique grace in and of itself. Even this is beyond the power of one's free will to accomplish on its own without grace.

Edited February 24, 2010 by kafka

[Slappo]

[quote name='kafka' date='24 February 2010 - 01:40 PM' timestamp='1267047639' post='2062596']
the problem with this is that to constantly choose to dispose oneself to Divine Grace at all moments is a unique grace in and of itself. Even this is beyond the power of one's free will to accomplish on its own without grace.
[/quote]

Any decision to dispose yourself to grace takes grace in itself. No one can choose anything that is good without grace.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='kafka' date='24 February 2010 - 04:40 PM' timestamp='1267047639' post='2062596']
the problem with this is that to constantly choose to dispose oneself to Divine Grace at all moments is a unique grace in and of itself. Even this is beyond the power of one's free will to accomplish on its own without grace.
[/quote]


[quote name='Slappo' date='24 February 2010 - 04:54 PM' timestamp='1267048473' post='2062603']
Any decision to dispose yourself to grace takes grace in itself. No one can choose anything that is good without grace.
[/quote]

Is it just me or did you two just say the same thing?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='24 February 2010 - 05:33 PM' timestamp='1267050813' post='2062618']
Is it just me or did you two just say the same thing?
[/quote]
That was exactly my thought, and yes, they did.

[Slappo]

The difference is he was saying that it is a problem to say Mary was constantly choosing to dispose herself to divine grace because grace itself is required to make that choice.

There is no problem. Yes it is true that all good actions and choices require grace for one to make them, but that does not make it problematic to say that Mary constantly chose to dispose herself to grace.


Edit: The way he comes across is saying that the statement I made above means less because it took grace for Mary to do such a thing. It [b]almost[/b] comes across as if he is saying it wasn't in Mary's free will [b]because[/b] she was moved by grace. It was of course still a free action of Mary's to choose to dispose herself to grace. I don't see where his first few words "the problem with this is" come in to play. I don't see any problem whatsoever.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Slappo

[Thy Geekdom Come]

At some point, free will has to enter the picture. You can say that grace helped her choose grace and the correct response is, "yes, grace (A) helped her choose grace (B), but she freely cooperated with the grace (A)." Then someone might say, "sure, but her free cooperation with the grace was itself possible through grace." Then repeat. Each time you repeat, it makes the role of her free will slightly less. I think that this is a bad way to put this argument. It's too mathematical. You have to look at it this way: God calls us toward Himself and wraps His arms (grace) around us to pull us in. If we resist, He continues, but not the the point of forcing us to move against our will. He gently tugs. We must choose to move with Him, but all we're really doing is lifting our feet one at a time. He's still the one doing the pulling.

[scardella]

[quote name='Raphael' date='24 February 2010 - 08:35 PM' timestamp='1267058122' post='2062659']
At some point, free will has to enter the picture. You can say that grace helped her choose grace and the correct response is, "yes, grace (A) helped her choose grace (B), but she freely cooperated with the grace (A)." Then someone might say, "sure, but her free cooperation with the grace was itself possible through grace." Then repeat. Each time you repeat, it makes the role of her free will slightly less. I think that this is a bad way to put this argument. It's too mathematical. You have to look at it this way: God calls us toward Himself and wraps His arms (grace) around us to pull us in. If we resist, He continues, but not the the point of forcing us to move against our will. He gently tugs. We must choose to move with Him, but all we're really doing is lifting our feet one at a time. He's still the one doing the pulling.
[/quote]

So, what you're saying is that, unlike energy, Mary entered into a positive feedback loop of grace that esploded into pure (pun enjoyed) awesomeness without sin.