kafka Posted June 28, 2009 Posted June 28, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1902907' date='Jun 27 2009, 05:17 PM']I actually like the repetitiveness of the epistles and gospels in the EF. I think that hearing the same passages of Scripture on a particular Sunday each year helps to impress those passages on our mind better. Additionally, the passages read in the EF tend to be shorter, which leaves more time for praying the other parts of the Mass more devoutly. In the OF, where there are longer readings, it is often the case that the shortest Eucharistic prayer is chosen to save time, which I find problematic.[/quote] weak argument. Sounds more like an excuse to me in favor of your preference. I would even wager that if the EF had the sort of diversity of readings of the OF back to the Council of Trent, you would think it fitting and perfectly sensible. I served at the EF everyday for about five straight years, and I decided that the repetitiveness was absurd only after I started attending OF daily. Plus in the OF each day there is a little theme or nuance of the Faith, and it even spills into the Office prayers. It is edifying for the Faithful to be exposed to more Sacred Scripture than less.
MIKolbe Posted June 28, 2009 Posted June 28, 2009 appearances...how positively pharisedic!!! and 14 years of 'noticing' at that........
cmotherofpirl Posted June 28, 2009 Posted June 28, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1902920' date='Jun 27 2009, 06:26 PM']We are debating about which from of the Mass we prefer.[/quote] It is a simple preference, since any valid Mass gives glory to God. Please do not start the my Mass is better or more holy than your Mass croutons again.
Resurrexi Posted June 28, 2009 Author Posted June 28, 2009 [quote name='kafka' post='1903082' date='Jun 27 2009, 08:11 PM']weak argument. Sounds more like an excuse to me in favor of your preference. I would even wager that if the EF had the sort of diversity of readings of the OF back to the Council of Trent, you would think it fitting and perfectly sensible. I served at the EF everyday for about five straight years, and I decided that the repetitiveness was absurd only after I started attending OF daily. Plus in the OF each day there is a little theme or nuance of the Faith, and it even spills into the Office prayers. It is edifying for the Faithful to be exposed to more Sacred Scripture than less.[/quote] If you think that the repetitiveness in the EF is absurd, you should stay far away from the Byzantine Liturgy! (I am very fond of the repetitiveness of the Byzantine Liturgy, by the way.) Since we are speaking of the Byzantine Liturgy, I would like to say that, just like the ancient Roman Liturgy, the Byzantine Liturgy uses a one-year cycle of readings rather than a three-year cycle. The use of a three-year cycle is an innovation that has never been seen before in liturgical history. Again, like the EF, there are normally only two selections of Scripture (obviously in addition to the numerous psalms and quotes from Scripture in the prayers themselves) in the Byzantine Liturgy. As to your claim that there the EF contains less of Scripture, I would venture to say that the unchanging prayers of the EF Mass are far more saturated with quotations from the Bible than prayers of the OF are. As you know, the EF begins with an entire psalm, and again at the lavabo another entire psalm is prayed. The EF also ends with the beginning of St. John's Gospel, which the OF does not include.
kafka Posted June 28, 2009 Posted June 28, 2009 (edited) [quote name='MIkolbe' post='1903095' date='Jun 27 2009, 09:27 PM']appearances...how positively pharisedic!!! and 14 years of 'noticing' at that........[/quote] I was just reminiscing on how there would around fifty to a hundred Masses commemorating a Confessor or a Virgin each year in the EF, and the same readings/prayers would be read for each of the respective Masses. I remember rejoicing when there would actually be a second class feast day just so the readings would change. The daily and Sunday cycle of the OF readings/prayers is more sophisticated, detailed, thematic, all-encompassing. Edited June 28, 2009 by kafka
Resurrexi Posted June 28, 2009 Author Posted June 28, 2009 (edited) [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1903105' date='Jun 27 2009, 08:38 PM']It is a simple preference, since any valid Mass gives glory to God. Please do not start the my Mass is better or more holy than your Mass croutons again.[/quote] It is true that the intrinsic value of the Mass is infinite, since Christ, Who is the Priest and Victim, is infinite. "While we must always regard its intrinsic value [of the Mass] as infinite, since it is the sacrifice of the God-Man Himself, its extrinsic value must necessarily be finite in consequence of the limitations of man. " ([url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10006a.htm"]Catholic Encyclopedia, "The Sacrifice of the Mass"[/url]) Edited June 28, 2009 by Resurrexi
kafka Posted June 28, 2009 Posted June 28, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1903108' date='Jun 27 2009, 09:40 PM']As to your claim that there the EF contains less of Scripture, I would venture to say that the unchanging prayers of the EF Mass are far more saturated with quotations from the Bible than prayers of the OF are. As you know, the EF begins with an entire psalm, and again at the lavabo another entire psalm is prayed. The EF also ends with the beginning of St. John's Gospel, which the OF does not include.[/quote] Just about every OF prayer I've prayed or heard at Mass or reciting the office is taken from the Scripture readings or psalms being prayed. There either part, majority, or an entire new Psalm prayed at the OF every single day of the year. I think the Gospel of Saint John could be added to the end of the Ordinary Form on occasion.
Resurrexi Posted June 28, 2009 Author Posted June 28, 2009 [quote name='kafka' post='1903123' date='Jun 27 2009, 08:52 PM']Just about every OF prayer I've prayed or heard at Mass or reciting the office is taken from the Scripture readings or psalms being prayed. There either part, majority, or an entire new Psalm prayed at the OF every single day of the year. I think the Gospel of Saint John could be added to the end of the Ordinary Form on occasion.[/quote] As I am sure you are aware, in the introit, gradual, tract, alleluia, offertory, and communion antiphons are almost always taken from the Book of Psalms. I would say these variable antiphons are equal in length to the responsorial psalm. (Obviously there are anitphons to be chanted or recited in the OF, but usually they are replaced by vernacular hymnody.) I might also add that in the EF Office more than twice as many psalms are prayed each year. In the various EF psalter schemas, all 150 psalms are prayed weekly. This is not so for the OF office, in which most of the hours use a four-week schema. Also, three entire psalms and 50 verses of other psalms are omitted in the OF schema.
Resurrexi Posted June 28, 2009 Author Posted June 28, 2009 [quote name='MIkolbe' post='1903095' date='Jun 27 2009, 08:27 PM']appearances...how positively pharisedic!!! and 14 years of 'noticing' at that........[/quote] I am sure that someone who never goes to the EF has so much more experience in noticing how priests celebrate the EF.
kafka Posted June 28, 2009 Posted June 28, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1903138' date='Jun 27 2009, 10:01 PM']As I am sure you are aware, in the introit, gradual, tract, alleluia, offertory, and communion antiphons are almost always taken from the Book of Psalms. I would say these variable antiphons are equal in length to the responsorial psalm. (Obviously there are anitphons to be chanted or recited in the OF, but usually they are replaced by vernacular hymnody.) I might also add that in the EF Office more than twice as many psalms are prayed each year. In the various EF psalter schemas, all 150 psalms are prayed weekly. This is not so for the OF office, in which most of the hours use a four-week schema. Also, three entire psalms and 50 verses of other psalms are omitted in the OF schema.[/quote] those omissions are valid complaints about the OF Office. One of my points about the repetitiveness is that the introit, gradual, tract, alleluia, offertory and communion of the EF are the same for the majority of the year since 3rd class feasts are continually repeated. In my complaints I'm not just referring to Sundays. Edited June 28, 2009 by kafka
Resurrexi Posted June 28, 2009 Author Posted June 28, 2009 The propers for third class feasts are not as repetitive as you make them seem. This month, there are only nine third class feasts. There are far more than nine different commons for various third class feasts of saints. Additionally, many third class feasts actually have their own propers not taken from the common. Even when the propers are repeated, at least the Mass propers actually relate to the Saint being celebrated.
kafka Posted June 28, 2009 Posted June 28, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1903167' date='Jun 27 2009, 10:19 PM']The propers for third class feasts are not as repetitive as you make them seem. This month, there are only nine third class feasts. There are far more than nine different commons for various third class feasts of saints. Additionally, many third class feasts actually have their own propers not taken from the common. Even when the propers are repeated, at least the Mass propers actually relate to the Saint being celebrated.[/quote] I partially concede to your first point, however in the end it is inefficient and unecessarily repetitive. I've participated in more Latin Masses in consecutive days than you have. Your second point is a cheap complaint. The daily propers have their own theme and order which corresponds to each liturgical season. The saint is commemorated in the prayers. I've noticed you really have a problem conceding. You have to learn to seek truth independent of your own preferences and your own idea of the Faith and what you think is better or right for whatever reason. And indepedant of reputation, and who and what is labeled orthodox, etc. Edited June 28, 2009 by kafka
Resurrexi Posted June 28, 2009 Author Posted June 28, 2009 [quote name='kafka' post='1903176' date='Jun 27 2009, 09:30 PM']I've noticed you really have a problem conceding. You have to learn to seek truth independent of your own preferences and your own idea of the Faith and what you think is better or right for whatever reason. And indepedant of reputation, and who and what is labeled orthodox, etc.[/quote] If I did not feel that the opinions which I hold are the best ones, then I would not hold them as my opinions. I do have a question for you though. Why is it necessary that more Scripture be read during the Mass? Could more Scripture not be read privately? Also, how do you feel about the translation of Scripture used at Mass? I cannot say that I like it. I would much rather read the lesson, epistle, and gospel from the RSV-CE, Douay-Rheims, or Confraternity Version than hear them read using the revised NAB translation.
MIKolbe Posted June 28, 2009 Posted June 28, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1903142' date='Jun 27 2009, 08:04 PM']I am sure that someone who never goes to the EF has so much more experience in noticing how priests celebrate the EF. [/quote] you just don't get it, do you?
The Bus Station Posted June 28, 2009 Posted June 28, 2009 [quote name='Noel's angel' post='1902844' date='Jun 27 2009, 03:56 PM']Mass is Mass. As long as it's got Jesus, I'm happy.[/quote] Thank you. I nulled vote on this one
Resurrexi Posted June 28, 2009 Author Posted June 28, 2009 (edited) [quote name='The Bus Station' post='1903192' date='Jun 27 2009, 09:44 PM']Thank you. I nulled vote on this one [/quote] If transubstantiation occurring is all that matters, why doesn't the priest just go to the altar, say the Words of Consecration, and leave? Edited June 28, 2009 by Resurrexi
Church Punk Posted June 28, 2009 Posted June 28, 2009 Hands down Extraordinary, I like genuflecting, bowing, silence, Gregorian chant, incense and kneeling at mass. Its more fitting actions for when Jesus real presence is brought right before us.
kafka Posted June 28, 2009 Posted June 28, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1903189' date='Jun 27 2009, 10:43 PM']I do have a question for you though. Why is it necessary that more Scripture be read during the Mass? Could more Scripture not be read privately? Also, how do you feel about the translation of Scripture used at Mass? I cannot say that I like it. I would much rather read the lesson, epistle, and gospel from the RSV-CE, Douay-Rheims, or Confraternity Version than hear them read using the revised NAB translation.[/quote] Sacred Scripture has a greater effect on the soul (and even the body) when it is publicly announced in the official capacity of the Church and heard out loud. {10:17} Therefore, faith is from hearing, and hearing is through the Word of Christ. I would prefer the Confraternity Version or an updated version of the Douay-Rheims into modern English.
Resurrexi Posted June 28, 2009 Author Posted June 28, 2009 (edited) [quote name='kafka' post='1903231' date='Jun 27 2009, 10:25 PM']Sacred Scripture has a greater effect on the soul (and even the body) when it is publicly announced in the official capacity of the Church and heard out loud.[/quote] Sacred Scripture has its greatest effect when it is chanted liturgically by a cleric in a sacral language. Edited June 28, 2009 by Resurrexi
kafka Posted June 28, 2009 Posted June 28, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1903232' date='Jun 27 2009, 11:27 PM']It has its greatest effect when it is chanted liturgically by a cleric in a sacral language. [/quote] not if the people cant understand it
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