The Mass

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1902920' date='Jun 27 2009, 04:26 PM']We are debating about which from of the Mass we prefer.[/quote]

That's not really a debate, is it? But who really cares what subsection of phatmass it's in.
I'd rather a High Mass in the EF over everything. But I'd rather a normal OF Mass without hymns (think weekday type of Mass) to an EF low Mass. Although I do really appreciate the silence in the low Mass.

And ofcourse, if I receive communion I kneel and extend my tongue at both the Old and New Rite.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='kafka' post='1903236' date='Jun 27 2009, 10:35 PM']not if the people cant understand it [/quote]

Many [i]do[/i] understand the various Latin (and the other Catholic sacred languages such as Greek).

In any case, reading along while the selections from Scripture are being chanted in the liturgical language has the same effect that hearing them in the vernacular would.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1903240' date='Jun 27 2009, 10:40 PM']That's not really a debate, is it? But who really cares what subsection of phatmass it's in.
I'd rather a High Mass in the EF over everything. But I'd rather a normal OF Mass without hymns (think weekday type of Mass) to an EF low Mass. Although I do really appreciate the silence in the low Mass.[/quote]

I certainly prefer High Mass to Low Mass, but I cannot stand watching others receive standing or on the hand.

[loveletslive]

i prefer the OF, i appreciate having Mass in the vernacular.

my parish has EF once a month. i usually go. i love it. it's beautiful. i love the Latin and the chanting and kneeling to receive on the tongue. however it's a novelty for me and my mind wanders more if i am not reading along in the little red booklet

[picchick]

[quote name='kafka' post='1903236' date='Jun 27 2009, 11:35 PM']not if the people cant understand it [/quote]

BRAVO!

Look, Rex, nothing is wrong with the EF. However, you are turning it into a "It is the best." and frankly, it is wrong. You are wrong. The EF is not better than the OF or any other liturgy. Jesus is present in the Eucharist no matter where you go for a valid Mass. And if it was so degrading/unworthy for Jesus to be present at an OF, why does it still exist?

And there is validity attached to the Mass so the priest just can't go up there and say consecration and be done with it.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1902990' date='Jun 27 2009, 05:34 PM']I believe that the rites and ceremonies of the EF give more glory to God than those of the OF.

Similarly, I believe that a High Mass gives greater glory to God than a Low Mass.

The more solemn the ceremonies of the Mass are, the greater is the glory given to God.

Obviously one's own spiritual dispositions are equally important, but I think that, even if the Mass is celebrated in Latin, anyone can put his whole heart into it.[/quote]

What a basic and human understanding of the divine. I really do not think He cares that much about how much Latin or incense we can use. What's most important is that our hearts are in it.
Like the parable about the rich man who went to the temple and made a big show out of his prayers and offerings.

I prefer the EF Mass because it makes me realize how great God is. Not because I think it gives him more glory just because it's chanted, smells nice, sounds nice, is in latin.

I don't think God is impressed by stuff like that, that's for our own edification. I think he wants a contrite and loving heart. Nothing to do with pomp or ceremony.

For me, the TLM is a means to an end.

Edited June 28, 2009 by OraProMe

[kafka]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1903243' date='Jun 27 2009, 11:42 PM']Many [i]do[/i] understand the various Latin (and the other Catholic sacred languages such as Greek).

In any case, reading along while the selections from Scripture are being chanted in the liturgical language has the same effect that hearing them in the vernacular would.[/quote]
let me correct you. I'm not sure what earth you live in but relatively few (maybe 5%?) of the one billion worldwide Catholics including myself understand Latin or Greek.

and no reading along in a Missal does not have the same effect. That is absurd. As a matter of fact depending on a Missal can be a distraction and obstruction from participating fully.

Btw, I am genuinely curious and maybe you can start a new thread on this but where did the idea arise that certain languages are sacred? I get the sense that this is a theological myth, since I've never come accross God declaring a particular language as sacred in Tradition or Scripture.

Edited June 28, 2009 by kafka

[picchick]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1903252' date='Jun 27 2009, 11:48 PM']What a basic and human understanding of the divine. [b]I really do not think He cares that much about how much Latin or incense we can use. What's most important is that our hearts are in it. [/b]Like the parable about the rich man who went to the temple and made a big show out of his prayers and offerings.

I prefer the EF Mass because it makes me realize how great God is. Not because I think it gives him more glory just because it's chanted, smells nice, sounds nice, is in latin.

[b]I don't think God is impressed by stuff like that, that's for our own edification[/b]. I think he wants a contrite and loving heart. Nothing to do with pomp or ceremony.

For me, the TLM is a means to an end.[/quote]





Emphasis mine.

yes, the incense has meaning. Yes, the actions have meaning. But what is the point if you are going into the Mass thinking, "Thank you Jesus, I am going to the [i]right[/i] Mass that gives you the better glory."?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='picchick' post='1903251' date='Jun 27 2009, 10:45 PM']BRAVO!

Look, Rex, nothing is wrong with the EF. However, you are turning it into a "It is the best." and frankly, it is wrong. You are wrong. The EF is not better than the OF or any other liturgy. Jesus is present in the Eucharist no matter where you go for a valid Mass. And if it was so degrading/unworthy for Jesus to be present at an OF, why does it still exist?

And there is validity attached to the Mass so the priest just can't go up there and say consecration and be done with it.[/quote]

I do believe that the EF is superior to the OF, and, as a Catholic, I am completely entitled to that belief.

I do not believe that the OF is anything like a Satanic service, but even a "Black Mass" can be valid if an ordained priest uses the correct bread and wine and says the correct words with the correct intention.

By the way, even if a priest did go to the altar, perform the Consecration, and leave, the the Mass would be valid, though extremely sacrilegious. Also, the sacrifice would remain "incomplete" in some sense since the Communion of the priest is necessary in some way to the sacrifice.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1903252' date='Jun 27 2009, 10:48 PM']What a basic and human understanding of the divine. I really do not think He cares that much about how much Latin or incense we can use. What's most important is that our hearts are in it.
Like the parable about the rich man who went to the temple and made a big show out of his prayers and offerings.

I prefer the EF Mass because it makes me realize how great God is. Not because I think it gives him more glory just because it's chanted, smells nice, sounds nice, is in latin.

I don't think God is impressed by stuff like that, that's for our own edification. I think he wants a contrite and loving heart. Nothing to do with pomp or ceremony.

For me, the TLM is a means to an end.[/quote]

I got the idea that a High Mass gives greater glory to God than a Low Mass from a homily by a priest of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter.

If you think that idea wrong, you can write a letter about it to the FSSP seminary.

[OraProMe]

Rex,

Would an EF low Mass in the vernacular versus populum (yes, it has been done) be better than a Solemn Mass celebrated in Latin, Ad Orientem with incense and communion on the tongue in the OF?

Edited June 28, 2009 by OraProMe

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='kafka' post='1903253' date='Jun 27 2009, 10:48 PM']Btw, I am genuinely curious and maybe you can start a new thread on this but where did the idea arise that certain languages are sacred? I get the sense that this is a theological myth, since I've never come accross God declaring a particular language as sacred in Tradition or Scripture.[/quote]

Certain languages are sacred because they are the official languages of the Liturgy.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Resurrexi

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1903264' date='Jun 27 2009, 10:57 PM']I got the idea that a High Mass gives greater glory to God than a Low Mass from a homily by a priest of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter.

If you think that idea wrong, you can write a letter about it to the FSSP seminary.[/quote]

What a great disclaimer and way to avoid the question.
I thought seem you decided to replicate his views you might want to be able to back them up?
Seriously, do you think God is impressed by Latin or incense?

Like I said, it's for our own edification.

Edited June 28, 2009 by OraProMe

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1903265' date='Jun 27 2009, 10:57 PM']Rex,

Would an EF low Mass in the vernacular versus populum (yes, it has been done) be better than a Solemn Mass celebrated in Latin, Ad Orientem with incense and communion on the tongue in the OF?[/quote]

I am aware that the EF has been celebrated versus poplum. I saw a very strange video of such a Mass from the 1960s on YouTube.

I would prefer the OF Mass that you described.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1903271' date='Jun 27 2009, 11:01 PM']I am aware that the EF has been celebrated versus poplum. I saw a very strange video of such a Mass from the 1960s on YouTube.

I would prefer the OF Mass that you described. [/quote]


AWESOME!

Now I want you to tell me why you think the EF Mass is superior to the OF?
The answer you've given here implies because of Latin, incense, externals. Externals that really don't matter to God.

You see maybe if you said "oh the EF Mass is a more complete expression of Catholic doctrine" or "oh, you know the EF Mass expresses the sacrificial nature of the Mass so well". But given your answer to the question I posed it seems you're only worried about externals and not actual substance?

Once again, I doubt that stuff impresses God. After all, he did create it all.

Edited June 28, 2009 by OraProMe

[kafka]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1903266' date='Jun 27 2009, 11:58 PM']Certain languages are sacred because they are the official languages of the Liturgy.[/quote]
that doesnt make any sense. A whole language isnt made sacred because it is used in the Liturgy.

With that logic eventually every language on Earth will be sacred since the Liturgy is celebrated in almost every language.

can you point to me the theological background of this idea?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1903273' date='Jun 27 2009, 11:04 PM']AWESOME!

Now I want you to tell me why you think the EF Mass is superior to the OF?
The answer you've given here implies because of Latin, incense, externals. Externals that really don't matter to God.

You see maybe if you said "oh the EF Mass is a more complete expression of Catholic doctrine" or "oh, you know the EF Mass expresses the sacrificial nature of the Mass so well". But given your answer to the question I posed it seems you're only worried about externals and not actual substance?

Once again, I doubt that stuff impresses God. After all, he did create it all.[/quote]

I would like to change what I said. I would only prefer the OF Mass if the Roman Canon were used. I believe that it better represents Catholic doctrine than the other eucharistic prayers.

I would also like to let you know that earlier in the thread I mentioned that I believed that the EF expresses the Real Presence and the sacrificial nature of the Mass better.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1903273' date='Jun 27 2009, 11:04 PM']Now I want you to tell me why you think the EF Mass is superior to the OF?
The answer you've given here implies because of Latin, incense, externals. Externals that really don't matter to God.[/quote]

This is how I think of it. An Our Father said slowly with devotion is more pleasing to God than an Our Father rushed through sloppily. In a like manner, a Mass solemnly chanted gives greater glory to God than a Mass merely read without chant.

I think that [url="http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20030108-The-Solemn-High-Mass.html"]this[/url] is the homily that I was discussing earlier, if you want to listen to it. (It is asked that you say three Hail Marys for the priest who gave the homily if you do listen to it.)

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='kafka' post='1903276' date='Jun 27 2009, 11:08 PM']that doesnt make any sense. A whole language isnt made sacred because it is used in the Liturgy.

With that logic eventually every language on Earth will be sacred since the Liturgy is celebrated in almost every language.

can you point to me the theological background of this idea?[/quote]

In Hebrew the word holy means "set aside." Certain languages are set aside for use in the celebration of the Mass and the administration of the Sacraments. The fact that they are set aside by the Church is what makes them holy.

I also agree with Pope John VIII that God "created the three principal languages, Hebrew, Greek, and Latin." ([url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14041b.htm"]Boczek, Codex, tom. I, pp. 43-44[/url])

Edited June 28, 2009 by Resurrexi

[OraProMe]

God doesn't create languages Res, they come about through intellectual evolution and the neccesity of our ancestors to express themselves. From there they adapt to their particular cultural and historical environment.

Edited June 28, 2009 by OraProMe