Just Want To Vent

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' post='1913016' date='Jul 6 2009, 08:05 PM']Can those who hearts are truly in the right place not be saddened by those who's actions are irreverence to the sacredness of the Mass?[/quote]
I don't know about you, but dealing with my own heart keeps me busy enough when I'm in Mass. I get distracted easily by shiny objects, so I work to keep my focus on Jesus, where I think all of us should be focusing during Mass. Besides, I have not been gifted with the ability to read the hearts of people around me. Perhaps if I were, as you seem to be, I would be more deeply saddened.

[toebat]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1913021' date='Jul 6 2009, 09:15 PM'][url="http://web2.iadfw.net/carlsch/MaterDei/churches.htm"]http://web2.iadfw.net/carlsch/MaterDei/churches.htm[/url][/quote]



Thank you so very much

[toebat]

Aww, I just checked. The two Churches closest to me are in a state of change. The Priest is retiring from one, and the other just got moved.

[Luthien]

Maybe I shouldn't come into these threads and post...

[mcts]

[quote name='Luthien' post='1912892' date='Jul 6 2009, 06:42 PM']I guess what I was trying to say was that standing for a president is different than kneeling for God.[/quote]


i agree completely. a president is not on the same level as God.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='princessgianna' post='1913026' date='Jul 6 2009, 09:25 PM']but..but...but I like randomly hugging random people. And if they sit far away as to ignore me -I then run across the Church during mass and get in thier face , obviously distracting them from prayer and then inquire for about 2-3 mins about thier spiritual life.
I only leave when the priest has to tell everyone to return to thier places,so that he may continue.[/quote]


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[Sojourner]

[quote name='Luthien' post='1913047' date='Jul 6 2009, 07:42 PM'] Maybe I shouldn't come into these threads and post...[/quote]
Sorry ... my comments were really not primarily directed at you.

[quote name='mcts' post='1913180' date='Jul 6 2009, 09:22 PM']i agree completely. a president is not on the same level as God.[/quote]
Well, Mrs. Bro Adam has in the recent past stated that we should dress for Mass in the same way we should dress to meet the President, so I figured it wasn't such a bad comparison to make in answer to her point.

[Angel*Star]

[quote name='princessgianna' post='1913026' date='Jul 6 2009, 09:25 PM']but..but...but I like randomly hugging random people. And if they sit far away as to ignore me -I then run across the Church during mass and get in thier face , obviously distracting them from prayer and then inquire for about 2-3 mins about thier spiritual life.
I only leave when the priest has to tell everyone to return to thier places,so that he may continue.[/quote]


At my high school masses in the late 70's, early 80's, the sign of peace would take 20-30 minutes! And yes, the priest would have to call order because we totally lost the point of why we were there.

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1913033' date='Jul 6 2009, 07:30 PM']I don't know about you, but dealing with my own heart keeps me busy enough when I'm in Mass. I get distracted easily by shiny objects, so I work to keep my focus on Jesus, where I think all of us should be focusing during Mass. Besides, I have not been gifted with the ability to read the hearts of people around me. Perhaps if I were, as you seem to be, I would be more deeply saddened.[/quote]

Wow how people jump to conclusions...
Ever notice how distracting it is when you understand just how much reverence is due to Christ in the Mass, and then you notice that those who are supposed to be setting the example are setting a very poor one? It is distracting, at least for me, because it makes me sad that the reverence is just missing from the Mass. This particular cantor messed up on the "Holy, Holy, Holy", which is fine; (hey I've messed up as cantor, too), but she not only did not kneel, but sat up there laughing because she had messed up the "Holy, Holy, Holy". I suppose the question I would like most to see answered is this: "Whatever happened to the reverence of the Mass? When people dress less than their best, what exactly is that reflective of?" (When I say best, I don't mean prom dresses or tuxedos, I mean a simple dress or skirt and nice shirt for women, and dress pants and button up shirt, with or without a tie, for men.)

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1913208' date='Jul 6 2009, 09:50 PM']Sorry ... my comments were really not primarily directed at you.


Well, Mrs. Bro Adam has in the recent past stated that we should dress for Mass in the same way we should dress to meet the President, so I figured it wasn't such a bad comparison to make in answer to her point.[/quote]

That was never my point. The point always has been, why is it that when young women from a college sports team wore flip flops to meet the president years ago, people were outraged because of it stating that it was inappropriate and not respectful, yet when people wear shorts and a t-shirt to Mass with flip flops, it's simply seen as ok? Do you not see the hypocrisy of it?

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Angel*Star' post='1913220' date='Jul 6 2009, 11:56 PM']At my high school masses in the late 70's, early 80's, the sign of peace would take 20-30 minutes! And yes, the priest would have to call order because we totally lost the point of why we were there.[/quote]



I thought it was bad at my Newman Center.

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[Sojourner]

[quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' post='1913222' date='Jul 6 2009, 10:57 PM']Wow how people jump to conclusions...
Ever notice how distracting it is when you understand just how much reverence is due to Christ in the Mass, and then you notice that those who are supposed to be setting the example are setting a very poor one? It is distracting, at least for me, because it makes me sad that the reverence is just missing from the Mass. This particular cantor messed up on the "Holy, Holy, Holy", which is fine; (hey I've messed up as cantor, too), but she not only did not kneel, but sat up there laughing because she had messed up the "Holy, Holy, Holy". I suppose the question I would like most to see answered is this: "Whatever happened to the reverence of the Mass? When people dress less than their best, what exactly is that reflective of?" (When I say best, I don't mean prom dresses or tuxedos, I mean a simple dress or skirt and nice shirt for women, and dress pants and button up shirt, with or without a tie, for men.)



That was never my point. The point always has been, why is it that when young women from a college sports team wore flip flops to meet the president years ago, people were outraged because of it stating that it was inappropriate and not respectful, yet when people wear shorts and a t-shirt to Mass with flip flops, it's simply seen as ok? Do you not see the hypocrisy of it?[/quote]
I'm going to be blunt in my response here, which may not come across very charitably but it is not intended to be offensive.

I understand your frustration, I really do. I am a convert, just as you and your husband are, and I think that as converts it is really easy to do two things. First, I find I have had an idealized vision of what the experience of being Catholic should be like. When you convert, if you're conscientious about it, you read some really, really beautiful theology, and you come to understand the liturgy in a much deeper level than many people who sit around you in the pews, or even than leaders in the parish. You have this vision of perfection in your head, but reality does not measure up. So there is a temptation to sink into bitterness at the disconnect you see all around you, [b]especially[/b] because you gave up a lot and made sacrifices to be where you are. It's not unlike the parable Jesus tells about the vineyard owner who hires workers throughout the day and pays the workers who worked all day the same as the workers who come in at the last minute.

The other thing it's easy to do is compare Catholic lay participation to that of members in the churches (sorry Resurrexi -- "ecclesial communities") we came from. All too often, it does not compare. I came from small, committed denominations, where most people knew their faith, knew how to defend it, and were willing to do whatever it took for the glory of God. The vast majority of Catholic parishes are not like that (at least the ones I've attended in my time as a Catholic). So there is frustration that people come off as being less knowledgeable, less reverent, and less passionate than the congregations we came from.

I see you come on from time to time with complaints about this or that in your parish, and my feeling (which may be wrong) is that you are struggling with frustration and anger in one or both of these areas. In my opinion, it is bordering on bitterness. I know what that's like. I have felt it too. I think what helped me is learning to be a little more realistic about how people really live out faith in their lives. Mass is about more than just the one hour we spend in Church. It is about how that hour shapes us so we can go out and evangelize in our worlds. We come in fallen human beings in search of grace, and we get it, so we can give it to people in our lives. It's really a beautiful thing, when you think about it, but it doesn't always execute perfectly. But then, what in life does? New life has a way of bursting forth from the most unexpected places. It's messy, but still lovely.

Jesus did not come into a perfectly ordered, clean world. He came into a dirty stable, grew up in the chaos of a completely family, and his death and resurrection still transformed the world. In the midst of the chaos and dirt that is still part of the makeup of our world, we participate in that transformation every week -- but we are still in process. No matter how much we try to pretend that we can achieve perfection here and now, the reality is that we are still trying to make sense of all this, and we have to be willing to extend the same grace to each other that is extended to us.

I truly hope you are able to come to a point of peace with your parish situation.

[zunshynn]

Of course we all need to work on having a correct interior disposition of reverence at Mass... But that doesn't mean that there shouldn't still be standards for dress and behavior at Mass and in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament. For example at the Shrine of the Most Blessed Sacrament, there is a dress code, (as there is at St. Peter's Basilica, as well). When the brothers get up to tell people they need to wear a sweater over their sleeveless shirts or pants over their shorts they were not being judgmental of that person, or suggesting that they really did not have an interior disposition or reverence. But in asking that people abide by the dress code, it is clear that out of love for Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament, they had a desire for Our Lord to be shown reverence externally as well as internally and want to prevent distractions for others trying to pray. Sometimes people realizing that there is an exterior standard is what makes them realize the need for deeper interior reverence.

On that note, I know for myself, seeing people dressed at Mass or acting in such a way that it would appear they don't get what's taking place at Mass is, yes, distracting to me, I can't help it, because it makes me feel sorry for them. I've been there, when I didn't get it, and I wish now that someone had tried to make me understand. And in a certain sense I know that my own failure to give Jesus the reverence that He deserves is partially to blame in the fact that so many people don't seem to realize Whose Presence we are in, because I haven't set the example that I should.

[mcts]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1913208' date='Jul 6 2009, 10:50 PM']Well, Mrs. Bro Adam has in the recent past stated that we should dress for Mass in the same way we should dress to meet the President, so I figured it wasn't such a bad comparison to make in answer to her point.[/quote]

i meant in regards to the amount of reverence due. God created me and everyone and everything around me. A president just leads my country.

[tinytherese]

I remember in my own conversion experience from being a luke-warm Catholic to a devout Catholic that helped bring me home was awe and reverence out of love for God that I saw being portrayed on EWTN. (I'm a convert or "lukevert" as I like to say through channel flipping.) I hadn't seen such utter awe, reverence, and passion anywhere before and it really touched my heart. I wasn't used to seeing people act that way before and this was one of the factors that attracted me to the faith. It was beautiful because it showed not only the beauty and splendor of God but also that these people actually took their faith seriously, which was very foreign to me even though I had gone to mass consistently throughout my life and Catholic schools. I wasn't used to anything as wonderous as this!

We live in an era particularly in the United States, where reverence for the sacred is disappearing big time and I think that one of the ways that we can convert more people is by showing reverence in our own example as others have stated on here and that through this loving reverence for the beautiful we can draw people in. The world already shows them irreverence and even blasphemy, why not show them something that the world in its cult of fun and shallow self-worship cannot give? Why not show them who can really satisfy all of their heart's desires--the one who freely gives of Himself under the appearance bread and wine? Bread and wine are transformed into the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ--God Himself...a greater miracle than the parting of the Red Sea or Lazarus being risen from the dead and we are actually allowed to receive Him! Could Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, or the Prophets ever imagined such a thing! My goodness, what we take for granted.

[VeniteAdoremus]

I thin tinytherese and zunshynn are spot on on how we should behave in church, and Terra Firma is spot on on how we should deal with others behaving.

I do think there's a difference between places like St. Peter's and also the Shrine and "normal" parish churches. [i]Not[/i] a difference in what goes on there, but in what you can realistically expect from people going there. I think everybody should dress for Church as if they're dressing for Church, but in parish churches, which are the "field stations" of the Faith, there shouldn't be a dress code.