Just Want To Vent

[Sojourner]

[quote name='mcts' post='1913301' date='Jul 6 2009, 11:57 PM']i meant in regards to the amount of reverence due. God created me and everyone and everything around me. A president just leads my country.[/quote]
I would, of course, agree that reverence due God is much greater. However, sometimes we use similar or the same gestures to demonstrate respect in both situations. When it comes to the President, we show respect based solely on social custom. When it comes to God, we show respect based on the norms enacted by our Pope and bishops. In this particular case, the two happen to intersect. The GIRM states that it can be reverent and respectful to stand during the consecration, according to the custom instituted by the bishop, priest, or the individual, depending on circumstances.

My only point in bringing up the President as an example was to counter arguments that it was disrespectful to stand. We do stand to show respect in certain circumstances, such as meeting the President. Similarly, it is a gesture (approved by Rome, under certain circumstances) that can communicate respect and reverence in the Mass. Making blanket statements that people that stand during the consecration are being irreverent does not take into consideration the circumstances which may legitimately allow standing as an expression of reverence and respect.

[Marie-Therese]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1912280' date='Jul 5 2009, 11:48 PM']I was in middle school when Michael Jackson was still black.[/quote]


Me too. That made me spit my cereal.

I wish that a lack of reverence for the sacred was the only problem with our current world...unfortunately I see I general lack of reverence (or respect, ftm) for anything. The only thing that our culture celebrates now is "me me me me me me me."

I cop to being distracted by the irreverent dress and behavior by members at my parish. There is one girl in particular who comes to mind. She shows up infrequently at best, usually in ripped jeans, flip flops and chewing gum, chatters throughout the entire Mass, and never fails to receive the Eucharist (still while chewing her gum). I have often prayed to God to forgive me for the anger that I feel when I see her, and to allow me this opportunity to turn inward and examine my own attention and reverence. But I won't lie, when she smacked her way through Easter service (sitting right in front of me) I was sorely tempted to reach up and smack her in the back of the head.

In a perfect world, everyone would behave, but I know that they won't. I just try to give them to God and let Him deal with them. I also try to remember that I can't judge a person's interior disposition by their exterior display.

God forgive me, I still want to smack that girl though. LOL

[CatherineM]

I have issues with cell phones.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' post='1913222' date='Jul 6 2009, 09:57 PM']" (When I say best, I don't mean prom dresses or tuxedos, I mean a simple dress or skirt and nice shirt for women, and dress pants and button up shirt, with or without a tie, for men.)[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
the more i think of it, the more i just think that if people could come to Mass wearing something clean, modest and respectful, we would see an improvement. whether that meant wearing jeans or slacks, capris or dresses or skirts.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1913282' date='Jul 6 2009, 10:39 PM']I'm going to be blunt in my response here, which may not come across very charitably but it is not intended to be offensive.

I understand your frustration, I really do. I am a convert, just as you and your husband are, and I think that as converts it is really easy to do two things. First, I find I have had an idealized vision of what the experience of being Catholic should be like. When you convert, if you're conscientious about it, you read some really, really beautiful theology, and you come to understand the liturgy in a much deeper level than many people who sit around you in the pews, or even than leaders in the parish. You have this vision of perfection in your head, but reality does not measure up. So there is a temptation to sink into bitterness at the disconnect you see all around you, [b]especially[/b] because you gave up a lot and made sacrifices to be where you are. It's not unlike the parable Jesus tells about the vineyard owner who hires workers throughout the day and pays the workers who worked all day the same as the workers who come in at the last minute.

The other thing it's easy to do is compare Catholic lay participation to that of members in the churches (sorry Resurrexi -- "ecclesial communities") we came from. All too often, it does not compare. I came from small, committed denominations, where most people knew their faith, knew how to defend it, and were willing to do whatever it took for the glory of God. The vast majority of Catholic parishes are not like that (at least the ones I've attended in my time as a Catholic). So there is frustration that people come off as being less knowledgeable, less reverent, and less passionate than the congregations we came from.

I see you come on from time to time with complaints about this or that in your parish, and my feeling (which may be wrong) is that you are struggling with frustration and anger in one or both of these areas. In my opinion, it is bordering on bitterness. I know what that's like. I have felt it too. I think what helped me is learning to be a little more realistic about how people really live out faith in their lives. Mass is about more than just the one hour we spend in Church. It is about how that hour shapes us so we can go out and evangelize in our worlds. We come in fallen human beings in search of grace, and we get it, so we can give it to people in our lives. It's really a beautiful thing, when you think about it, but it doesn't always execute perfectly. But then, what in life does? New life has a way of bursting forth from the most unexpected places. It's messy, but still lovely.

Jesus did not come into a perfectly ordered, clean world. He came into a dirty stable, grew up in the chaos of a completely family, and his death and resurrection still transformed the world. In the midst of the chaos and dirt that is still part of the makeup of our world, we participate in that transformation every week -- but we are still in process. No matter how much we try to pretend that we can achieve perfection here and now, the reality is that we are still trying to make sense of all this, and we have to be willing to extend the same grace to each other that is extended to us.

I truly hope you are able to come to a point of peace with your parish situation.[/quote]

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

I agree with you, Red. And that's the main reason I was frustrated during/after Mass on Saturday. What this girl was wearing was [b]not[/b] modest. Unless showing all your curves is modest

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' post='1913528' date='Jul 7 2009, 10:09 AM']I agree with you, Red. And that's the main reason I was frustrated during/after Mass on Saturday. What this girl was wearing was [b]not[/b] modest. Unless showing all your curves is modest [/quote]
+J.M.J.+
yeah, i hear ya. some days i wish i could keep my eyes closed the entire Mass. hard to do with children running amuck though.

[Azriel]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1913282' date='Jul 6 2009, 11:39 PM']I'm going to be blunt in my response here, which may not come across very charitably but it is not intended to be offensive.

I understand your frustration, I really do. I am a convert, just as you and your husband are, and I think that as converts it is really easy to do two things. First, I find I have had an idealized vision of what the experience of being Catholic should be like. When you convert, if you're conscientious about it, you read some really, really beautiful theology, and you come to understand the liturgy in a much deeper level than many people who sit around you in the pews, or even than leaders in the parish. You have this vision of perfection in your head, but reality does not measure up. So there is a temptation to sink into bitterness at the disconnect you see all around you, [b]especially[/b] because you gave up a lot and made sacrifices to be where you are. It's not unlike the parable Jesus tells about the vineyard owner who hires workers throughout the day and pays the workers who worked all day the same as the workers who come in at the last minute.

The other thing it's easy to do is compare Catholic lay participation to that of members in the churches (sorry Resurrexi -- "ecclesial communities") we came from. All too often, it does not compare. I came from small, committed denominations, where most people knew their faith, knew how to defend it, and were willing to do whatever it took for the glory of God. The vast majority of Catholic parishes are not like that (at least the ones I've attended in my time as a Catholic). So there is frustration that people come off as being less knowledgeable, less reverent, and less passionate than the congregations we came from.

I see you come on from time to time with complaints about this or that in your parish, and my feeling (which may be wrong) is that you are struggling with frustration and anger in one or both of these areas. In my opinion, it is bordering on bitterness. I know what that's like. I have felt it too. I think what helped me is learning to be a little more realistic about how people really live out faith in their lives. Mass is about more than just the one hour we spend in Church. It is about how that hour shapes us so we can go out and evangelize in our worlds. We come in fallen human beings in search of grace, and we get it, so we can give it to people in our lives. It's really a beautiful thing, when you think about it, but it doesn't always execute perfectly. But then, what in life does? New life has a way of bursting forth from the most unexpected places. It's messy, but still lovely.

Jesus did not come into a perfectly ordered, clean world. He came into a dirty stable, grew up in the chaos of a completely family, and his death and resurrection still transformed the world. In the midst of the chaos and dirt that is still part of the makeup of our world, we participate in that transformation every week -- but we are still in process. No matter how much we try to pretend that we can achieve perfection here and now, the reality is that we are still trying to make sense of all this, and we have to be willing to extend the same grace to each other that is extended to us.

I truly hope you are able to come to a point of peace with your parish situation.[/quote]

I just had to say thank you for this. It is eloquent and beautifully written.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Luthien' post='1912892' date='Jul 6 2009, 05:42 PM']I guess what I was trying to say was that standing for a president is different than kneeling for God.[/quote]
I don't think anyone equated the President and God. I think what Terra was getting at and the idea which I support is that social customs define what is appropriate for greeting someone of importance; similarly, custom also dictates what is appropriate for God. Had kneeling been the social custom for greeting the President, and standing the custom before God, there would be the opposite argument. Besides all of that, Teresa has used dressing for the President in comparison to dressing for God.

[quote name='Brother Adam' post='1912943' date='Jul 6 2009, 06:27 PM']1. Appropriate dress depends on local custom and what you are capable of dressing in. Exterior dress often reflects interior disposition and preparation to receive the king of glory. Even in impoverished Ireland and other poor districts people still obtained "Sunday dress" and wore it to Mass. It all depends on where your priorities are.

2. Standing and kneeling, and holding hands, and singing, and the orans, and crossing yourself, and bowing, and every other external gesture has a symbolic meaning at Mass. The action of kneeling has a different meaning than of standing. Both are worshipful positions, however during various parts of the divine liturgy, kneeling better reflects where we should be in our hearts and minds. This is why kneeling is often properly retained in the US liturgy. During various parts of the consecration it is required for its meaning. [b]As the last two Holy Father's have noted, the grave sacrilege of Catholics receiving without proper disposition and in a state of grace is far t0o common in the US.[/b][/quote]
Call me an idiot but I don't believe that a change from standing to kneeling or kneeling to standing would instantly change the interior disposition of the people of the United States (as a whole). What the magisterium is suggesting about our country, in my opinion, is something far more grave than our posture at Mass, especially considering there is nothing that says it must be done one way or the other. The bishops have been given the authority to decide that for their diocese.

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1912956' date='Jul 6 2009, 06:43 PM']Well, if the bishop -- or even the priest, in appropriate circumstances, has determined that standing should be the proper posture, then the GIRM allows for that sort of discretion. Discretion is even allowed to laypeople, who can decide to stand or sit instead of kneeling if some physical situation or barrier prevents kneeling.

If the GIRM allows discretion during a time that we're meant to show reverence, then it stands to reason that even Rome allows that standing can be a posture that shows reverence, even if it is not the most perfect posture for showing that.

As a secondary note, it is my understanding that Eastern tradition dictates standing during consecration (and Apo or someone else more familiar can correct me if I'm wrong on that point). Are we really saying Eastern Christians are behaving in a totally irreverent way?

I think there are a variety of physical positions that can show reverence, but frankly I think the exterior posture means nothing if the heart is not truly reverent. Perhaps rather than spending time critiquing other people's postures and judging their level of motivation, we would all be better off developing true reverence in our hearts, posture, and obedience to the authorities God has set over us.[/quote]
What she said!

[quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' post='1913016' date='Jul 6 2009, 08:05 PM']Can those who hearts are truly in the right place not be saddened by those who's actions are irreverence to the sacredness of the Mass?[/quote]
First, it's "whose" not "who's".

Second, it doesn't always come across as you being sad so much as you being critical, judgmental, condemning and resentful.

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1913033' date='Jul 6 2009, 08:30 PM']I don't know about you, but dealing with my own heart keeps me busy enough when I'm in Mass. I get distracted easily by shiny objects, so I work to keep my focus on Jesus, where I think all of us should be focusing during Mass. Besides, I have not been gifted with the ability to read the hearts of people around me. Perhaps if I were, as you seem to be, I would be more deeply saddened.[/quote]
that's what i was thinking but far more eloquently stated.

[quote name='mcts' post='1913180' date='Jul 6 2009, 10:22 PM']i agree completely. a president is not on the same level as God.[/quote]
i don't think anyone said a president was. the comparison was being used to show that social standards determine what is considered respectful.

[quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' post='1913222' date='Jul 6 2009, 10:57 PM']Wow how people jump to conclusions...
Ever notice how distracting it is when you understand just how much reverence is due to Christ in the Mass, and then you notice that those who are supposed to be setting the example are setting a very poor one? It is distracting, at least for me, because it makes me sad that the reverence is just missing from the Mass. This particular cantor messed up on the "Holy, Holy, Holy", which is fine; (hey I've messed up as cantor, too), but she not only did not kneel, but sat up there laughing because she had messed up the "Holy, Holy, Holy". I suppose the question I would like most to see answered is this: "Whatever happened to the reverence of the Mass? When people dress less than their best, what exactly is that reflective of?" (When I say best, I don't mean prom dresses or tuxedos, I mean a simple dress or skirt and nice shirt for women, and dress pants and button up shirt, with or without a tie, for men.)

That was never my point. The point always has been, why is it that when young women from a college sports team wore flip flops to meet the president years ago, people were outraged because of it stating that it was inappropriate and not respectful, yet when people wear shorts and a t-shirt to Mass with flip flops, it's simply seen as ok? Do you not see the hypocrisy of it?[/quote]
Do you see where you come across as bitter and angry rather than sad for Christ?

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1913282' date='Jul 6 2009, 11:39 PM']I'm going to be blunt in my response here, which may not come across very charitably but it is not intended to be offensive.

I understand your frustration, I really do. I am a convert, just as you and your husband are, and I think that as converts it is really easy to do two things. First, I find I have had an idealized vision of what the experience of being Catholic should be like. When you convert, if you're conscientious about it, you read some really, really beautiful theology, and you come to understand the liturgy in a much deeper level than many people who sit around you in the pews, or even than leaders in the parish. You have this vision of perfection in your head, but reality does not measure up. So there is a temptation to sink into bitterness at the disconnect you see all around you, [b]especially[/b] because you gave up a lot and made sacrifices to be where you are. It's not unlike the parable Jesus tells about the vineyard owner who hires workers throughout the day and pays the workers who worked all day the same as the workers who come in at the last minute.

The other thing it's easy to do is compare Catholic lay participation to that of members in the churches (sorry Resurrexi -- "ecclesial communities") we came from. All too often, it does not compare. I came from small, committed denominations, where most people knew their faith, knew how to defend it, and were willing to do whatever it took for the glory of God. The vast majority of Catholic parishes are not like that (at least the ones I've attended in my time as a Catholic). So there is frustration that people come off as being less knowledgeable, less reverent, and less passionate than the congregations we came from.

I see you come on from time to time with complaints about this or that in your parish, and my feeling (which may be wrong) is that you are struggling with frustration and anger in one or both of these areas. In my opinion, it is bordering on bitterness. I know what that's like. I have felt it too. I think what helped me is learning to be a little more realistic about how people really live out faith in their lives. Mass is about more than just the one hour we spend in Church. It is about how that hour shapes us so we can go out and evangelize in our worlds. We come in fallen human beings in search of grace, and we get it, so we can give it to people in our lives. It's really a beautiful thing, when you think about it, but it doesn't always execute perfectly. But then, what in life does? New life has a way of bursting forth from the most unexpected places. It's messy, but still lovely.

Jesus did not come into a perfectly ordered, clean world. He came into a dirty stable, grew up in the chaos of a completely family, and his death and resurrection still transformed the world. In the midst of the chaos and dirt that is still part of the makeup of our world, we participate in that transformation every week -- but we are still in process. No matter how much we try to pretend that we can achieve perfection here and now, the reality is that we are still trying to make sense of all this, and we have to be willing to extend the same grace to each other that is extended to us.

I truly hope you are able to come to a point of peace with your parish situation.[/quote]


[quote name='zunshynn' post='1913298' date='Jul 6 2009, 11:52 PM']Of course we all need to work on having a correct interior disposition of reverence at Mass... But that doesn't mean that there shouldn't still be standards for dress and behavior at Mass and in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament. For example at the Shrine of the Most Blessed Sacrament, there is a dress code, (as there is at St. Peter's Basilica, as well). When the brothers get up to tell people they need to wear a sweater over their sleeveless shirts or pants over their shorts they were not being judgmental of that person, or suggesting that they really did not have an interior disposition or reverence. But in asking that people abide by the dress code, it is clear that out of love for Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament, they had a desire for Our Lord to be shown reverence externally as well as internally and want to prevent distractions for others trying to pray. Sometimes people realizing that there is an exterior standard is what makes them realize the need for deeper interior reverence.[/quote]
An exterior standard which is defined by a covering of legs and arms is quite different, I believe, than a standard defined by material, style, and perhaps, at times, color.

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1913398' date='Jul 7 2009, 08:24 AM']I would, of course, agree that reverence due God is much greater. However, sometimes we use similar or the same gestures to demonstrate respect in both situations. When it comes to the President, we show respect based solely on social custom. When it comes to God, we show respect based on the norms enacted by our Pope and bishops. In this particular case, the two happen to intersect. The GIRM states that it can be reverent and respectful to stand during the consecration, according to the custom instituted by the bishop, priest, or the individual, depending on circumstances.

My only point in bringing up the President as an example was to counter arguments that it was disrespectful to stand. We do stand to show respect in certain circumstances, such as meeting the President. Similarly, it is a gesture (approved by Rome, under certain circumstances) that can communicate respect and reverence in the Mass. Making blanket statements that people that stand during the consecration are being irreverent does not take into consideration the circumstances which may legitimately allow standing as an expression of reverence and respect.[/quote]
Well said all around, Terra.


Oh btw, how about this Teresa? This seems to meet all of your requirements!
[img]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3260/3203432542_d3ca4921bb.jpg[/img]

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

It's more modest than what a lot of people at Mass wear. At least shoulders are covered and he's wearing pants

[VoTeckam]

[quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' post='1913574' date='Jul 7 2009, 01:47 PM']It's more modest than what a lot of people at Mass wear. At least shoulders are covered and he's wearing pants [/quote]


Ma ma mama says, "Jeans is from the debil."

[Luthien]

[quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1913564' date='Jul 7 2009, 02:38 PM']I don't think anyone equated the President and God. I think what Terra was getting at and the idea which I support is that social customs define what is appropriate for greeting someone of importance; similarly, custom also dictates what is appropriate for God. Had kneeling been the social custom for greeting the President, and standing the custom before God, there would be the opposite argument. Besides all of that, Teresa has used dressing for the President in comparison to dressing for God.[/quote]


Terra explained it to me, I got it. lol

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

Social customs dictating: Interesting argument. However, we do not go to Mass to celebrate someone of this world with our customs.

Would we go over to England and not bow before the Queen of England? Not if we wanted to stay out of trouble. How about other countries who still bow? We wouldn't go to another country, or if we were introduced to a dignitary or king/queen of another country, and try and force our customs on them. We are not the ones who created the liturgy or order of the Mass, rather it has been passed down to us from our forefathers of the faith. Why, then, would we change tradition when we are told to hold fast to them?

^Just a few thoughts that are running through my head.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' post='1914310' date='Jul 8 2009, 10:27 AM']Social customs dictating: Interesting argument. However, we do not go to Mass to celebrate someone of this world with our customs.

Would we go over to England and not bow before the Queen of England? Not if we wanted to stay out of trouble. How about other countries who still bow? We wouldn't go to another country, or if we were introduced to a dignitary or king/queen of another country, and try and force our customs on them. We are not the ones who created the liturgy or order of the Mass, rather it has been passed down to us from our forefathers of the faith. Why, then, would we change tradition when we are told to hold fast to them?

^Just a few thoughts that are running through my head.[/quote]
Maybe it's just me but this isn't making much sense.

[T-Bone _]

[quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1913564' date='Jul 7 2009, 10:38 AM']Oh btw, how about this Teresa? This seems to meet all of your requirements!
[img]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3260/3203432542_d3ca4921bb.jpg[/img][/quote]

Maybe for Pentecost Sunday...