Jesus_lol Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 If man was made in God's image, why do we have natural impulses to do "disordered" things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrestia Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1309549707' post='2261698'] If man was made in God's image, why do we have natural impulses to do "disordered" things? [/quote] http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt1art1p7.shtml Original sin. "The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul's spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination.[sup][url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt1art1p7.shtml#282"]282[/url][/sup] Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man.[sup][url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt1art1p7.shtml#283"]283[/url][/sup] Because of man, creation is now subject "to its bondage to decay."[sup][url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt1art1p7.shtml#284"]284[/url][/sup] Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will "return to the ground,"[sup][url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt1art1p7.shtml#285"]285[/url][/sup] for out of it he was taken. [i]Death makes its entrance into human history.[/i][sup][url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt1art1p7.shtml#286"]286[/url][/sup]" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Does the Church only bury those without sin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cappie Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 (edited) [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1309551086' post='2261705'] Does the Church only bury those without sin? [/quote] The primary purpose of a Church funeral is to pray for the spiritual support of the dead: canon 1176#2 [b]Church funerals are to be celebrated according to the norms of the liturgical books. In these funeral rites the Church prays for the spiritual support of the dead, it honours their bodies, and at the same time it brings to the living the comfort of hope.[/b] This consideration alone induces a strong reluctance to deny such a funeral to any of its members. Edited July 1, 2011 by cappie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrestia Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 (edited) There is a distinction between struggling with sin and accepting sin. A person who cheats on his wife, who then feels bad, admits his sin, goes to confession, & stops cheating would be permitted to have a Catholic funeral. A person who cheats on his wife, who then justifies his sin with whatever excuse, refuses to admit it, refuses to ask for absolution, & refuses to stop cheating would not be permitted to have a Catholic funeral. Though the sin is the same, the response to the sin is different. edit: I realize that this is an imperfect example and that real life cases are never black & white. Edited July 1, 2011 by tgoldson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1309549707' post='2261698'] If man was made in God's image, why do we have natural impulses to do "disordered" things? [/quote] According to St. Bernard, man was made in the image and likeness of God, but lost the likeness of God in original sin. The image remained intact, but the likeness was lost. The imagio Dei is man's free will, or freedom from necessity. The similitudo Dei is two-fold: the freedom from sin and the freedom from sorrow. Both of these, although lost in original sin, are restored by grace through Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='tgoldson' timestamp='1309552823' post='2261717'] There is a distinction between struggling with sin and accepting sin. [/quote] Does the church recognise that some followers may not agree entirely with the Church's definition of sin. Hence the person may not feel that they are accepting sin, but simply differing in opinion with regards to the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1309530478' post='2261546'] I find most of the people on these Gay discussions to be hostile and aggressive under a layer of pretty words. The easy fall back for you guys is Church documents, but you never examine those documents in light of what we know to be true today. You also don't examine those documents in light of what is in the bible.[/quote] Look, let me try to level with you. I don't know you, I don't know what you've been through, I don't know what type of jack asses you have had to deal with throughout your life, so I'm not gonna say your resentment and bitterness is unjustified. Perhaps you have been hurt, or wounded by people and that smells of elderberries. And yes there are people who take stabs at people behind the shield of "pretty words," but that doesn't mean everyone who tries to address the issue with kind words is being passive-aggressive. [quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1309541670' post='2261633'] Again- the word 'disorder' is not used in the sense of a particular mental disease or illness. [/quote] I don't mean to hijack the thread, but what if it was? My God, no wonder people recoil at the accusation of having a dreaded "mental illness." A major reason people find it so offensive is because mental illnesses are erroneously considered to be within full control of the person. Initially I was a bit scared to be diagnosed with depression and social anxiety, but after I learned that these things had a name and that it could actually be treated it was a great comfort. In fact it was such a relief to discover this, I didn't really give a poo that people might think I'm some weak-minded hypochondriac who doesn't have a "real" illness. Up until that point I let these disorders define me. I literally thought that my depression was a part of me and I thought that if someone took it away then a part of me would be missing. Looking back I can see how screwed up that type thinking was, and I'm glad I realized it before it took more of my life away. The thing is, with the disorders I had, or still have but with much less severity, are probably the result of a perfect storm of elements: my personality type, experiences, environmental factors and other miscellaneous croutons. Now, there's nothing wrong with my personality type (well I guess that's debatable;)) but me being an introverted, introspective, perceptive, some would say "intelligent" (again debatable), perceptive, sensitive . . . none of these things are bad but they do sometimes lend themselves to feelings of loneliness and isolation which perhaps consolidated the receptors in my brain to become somewhat of a mess. It's not always cut and dried to determine what is an intrinsic, God-given part of you and what is an affliction. Like I said, I honestly became attached to depression and as horrible as being depressed is I feared if it left me I wouldn't be a whole person. I can understand how Gay people might feel the same way, only perhaps the damaging effects of homosexuality are not as immediately obvious as is with depression and anxiety. I don't know. It's a complex problem but it somewhat irks me that people see "disorder" as something to be offended by. Continue . . . I'll go back to poppin' that sertraline and livin my life g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrestia Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1309556460' post='2261749'] Does the church recognise that some followers may not agree entirely with the Church's definition of sin. Hence the person may not feel that they are accepting sin, but simply differing in opinion with regards to the Church. [/quote] My weak, elementary understanding of Catholicism is that the Church certainly understands that some followers do disagree with some teachings, but that those followers are still accountable for their actions. We are supposed to be obedient, even when we don't understand or agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='tgoldson' timestamp='1309557766' post='2261756'] My weak, elementary understanding of Catholicism is that the Church certainly understands that some followers do disagree with some teachings, but that those followers are still accountable for their actions. We are supposed to be obedient, even when we don't understand or agree. [/quote] Wouldn't it be difficult to go against your own understanding of what is right and wrong, simply to be in alignment with the church? Would you then feel resentment that you are forced to do intentional wrong? If your god knows everything and can read your heart and your intent could your god not continue to love you and accept you for your attempts to be good (even if those attempt are misguided). Are you out to please your church or your god. I understand that the church tells you that it is divinely guided and infallible, but I am sure some Catholics have their doubts, especially when their hearts differ on some moral aspects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrestia Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1309559301' post='2261761'] Wouldn't it be difficult to go against your own understanding of what is right and wrong, simply to be in alignment with the church? Would you then feel resentment that you are forced to do intentional wrong? If your god knows everything and can read your heart and your intent could your god not continue to love you and accept you for your attempts to be good (even if those attempt are misguided). Are you out to please your church or your god. I understand that the church tells you that it is divinely guided and infallible, but I am sure some Catholics have their doubts, especially when their hearts differ on some moral aspects. [/quote] Of course it's difficult, but nothing worth having is easy. Submitting to authority takes great humility - I struggle with it constantly. There was a time in my youth when I basically ignored the rules that I thought were wrong. It wasn't because the rules were difficult for me to follow, but because I trusted my own research and my feelings over the Church. Over time, I came to understand the roots of some of those rules. There are still some things that I do not understand, but I now realize that I am not qualified to decide if the teachings are right. When I chose to stay Catholic, I chose to accept that I do not know everything and I chose to trust that the Church established by Christ and His apostles over 2,000 years ago might know better than I do. That does not mean that I can easily follow all the rules all the time - I fail, I make mistakes, I am so weak and pathetic, but I will not give up. What do you mean by intentional wrong? Can you give an example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Little Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1309465366' post='2261110'] So the man calling you fat was mean for telling you the truth? Would you feel the same if it were your doctor? The Church is a doctor of the soul, but not all souls listen. Do you really mean is truth is only acceptable if it agrees with your own perception and what you want to hear? I really doubt that is true. [/quote] THe Church is not the doctor of the soul. God is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Little Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1309480613' post='2261319'] But sometimes obeying God means we have to fight our instincts. We all have to fight temptations. Jesus Himself said we have to deny ourselves and take up our crosses. [/quote] Being gay is not a temptation. It's who we are! Just like you are who you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Little Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1309529895' post='2261538'] I have been in your position with this bunch before. I just want to reaffirm that yes it feels like you are being attacked because you are. They can try to hide that attack in nice words, but when it comes down to it, it hurts. I am with you. [/quote] Thank You! Greatly Appredcited! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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