Occupy Wall Street Baloney

[Socrates]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1317924263' post='2316379']
Personally, I like the looks of the protests there. That people were willing to stand up to the corporations that way is impressive. What ticks me off is that both the GOP and DFL don't seem to understand what's going on.
[/quote]
Not impressed. They really didn't stand up to anyone - just made a lot of noise and made themselves a public nuisance urinating in the streets and whatnot. "Wall Street" was not affected by the silliness, much less did the protesters gain anything for their benefit.
If they had an iota of sense, they'd be protesting Obama and the Federal Reserve (which was at the root of the economic collapse), rather than looking to the same corrupt and clueless politicians and bureaucrats to save them with more regulation and general government busibodiness. At this point, punishing "Wall Street" won't do a thing to improve anybody's lot.

To be effective, a purpose and plan of action is needed; otherwise, it's nothing more than a tantrum.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1317907672' post='2316057']
Eh, nothing wrong with a little class warfare. That's how we got the French Revolution, after all.
[/quote]
Yeah, one of the bloodiest events in Western history (as well as viciously anti-Catholic). It also gave us the Soviet Revolution and the years of tyranny and oppression that followed.

But, yeah class warfare. yeah socialism . . .
(Btw. both were explicitly condemned by multiple Popes.)

[Socrates]

[quote name='BG45' timestamp='1317958651' post='2317210']

I don't think so, seems to be about right to me.
[/quote]
Except that's not what Mr. Cain actually said, but oh well . . . .

[Socrates]

[media='']http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYX-121A7Zc[/media]

[Winchester]

[quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1317997553' post='2317419']
Socialism is only okay for businesses that give lots of contributions to political campaigns. They don't call it socialism, they call it stimulus or bail out.
[/quote]
I'd say it's fascism.

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1317999918' post='2317434']

No, that's what they want you to think. Demand power be stripped from both, lest there be much fire-n-pitchforking.
[/quote]
I think my snark implies this solution.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1318008326' post='2317484']
That doesn't contradict what I wrote. The Sons of Liberty were protesting taxation without representation, not the free market, and they weren't crying for more government regulation of the market (which the British had done with their restrictions and taxes).

That's actually a big difference.
[/quote]

It is a similar situation, Government propping up giant companies, passing laws that serve corporate interests over that of the people.

[Adrestia]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1318009294' post='2317488']
Except that's not what Mr. Cain actually said, but oh well . . . .
[/quote]

http://online.wsj.com/video/herman-cain-explains-his-999-plan/C0F27595-4101-4E21-83A0-A65A8C53D4F0.html

My bad. He said, "Don't blame Wall Street. Don't blame the big banks. If you don't have a job and you're not rich, blame yourself."

[Adrestia]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1318011086' post='2317499']

[quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1317997553' post='2317419']
Socialism is only okay for businesses that give lots of contributions to political campaigns. They don't call it socialism, they call it stimulus or bail out.
[/quote]

I'd say it's fascism.

[/quote]

"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power."
[url="http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/b/benito_mussolini.html"]Benito Mussolini[/url]

F4L also has an interesting take on the terms: "http://fathersforlife.org/rights/fascism_vs_socialism.htm

[BG45]

Adrestia and Nick already covered my points that I could've rebutted to lol. So props to them; Adrestia with the Herman Cain quote where he said "Don't blame Wall Street. Don't blame the big banks. If you don't have a job and you're not rich, blame yourself." And Nick by pointing out that it was a similar situation in so far as the government was propping up a failing corporation.

I find it fascinating that the media and people in this thread are ascribing goals to this movement that has not yet decided on set goals for itself. As was stated earlier, people seem confused in interviews as to what they actually want. Some are for regulation, some are for a wider free market (or so I would assume given the backing of libertarian Republicans like Rep. Ron Paul), etc.

[Winchester]

It's funny that advocating free market is in itself a rejection of Cain's statement.

[Winchester]

http://reason.com/archives/2011/10/07/occupy-wall-street-beyond-the

[Socrates]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1318011246' post='2317501']

It is a similar situation, Government propping up giant companies, passing laws that serve corporate interests over that of the people.
[/quote]
Except that the solutions are radically different.

The American patriots fought for limited government and against taxation without representation. They didn't demand that King George expand the power of the British government to further "regulate" the tea shipping industry, or preach class warfare.

Today's leftist protesters, on the other hand, demand increased federal government power to regulate private industry.

That's a big difference.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1318012814' post='2317519']

"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power."
[url="http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/b/benito_mussolini.html"]Benito Mussolini[/url]

F4L also has an interesting take on the terms: "http://fathersforlife.org/rights/fascism_vs_socialism.htm
[/quote]
In fascism and National Socialism (Nazism), all corporations were placed under control of the state. Industry was completely controlled by the state under Communism.

All those tyrannical statist regimes came to power by preaching class warfare, and promising to "the masses" deliverance from evil corporations and bankers.

[Socrates]

[media='']http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CjrZNi49bE&NR=1[/media]

Seems today, however, "Johnny Q. Public" is swallowing the "Ism" snake oil quite eagerly.

[arfink]

See, you people make big walls of text n stuff. The answer is very simple.

[img]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-idF2Rue8jE0/TpCB2jjrWUI/AAAAAAAAA-I/wRr18LtqKpw/s800/burnbaby.png[/img]

[BG45]

In keeping with the theme of trying to lighten the mood that arfink has set...

[img]http://i.imgur.com/Q35Dl.jpg[/img]

[Norseman82]

Well, I have heard on the news that some labor unions are going to lend support to the protests, and the protests are going to spread to even more places, so we'll definitely need to keep an eye on this.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1318008844' post='2317485']
Not impressed. They really didn't stand up to anyone - just made a lot of noise and made themselves a public nuisance urinating in the streets and whatnot. "Wall Street" was not affected by the silliness, much less did the protesters gain anything for their benefit.
If they had an iota of sense, they'd be protesting Obama and the Federal Reserve (which was at the root of the economic collapse), rather than looking to the same corrupt and clueless politicians and bureaucrats to save them with more regulation and general government busibodiness.[b] At this point, punishing "Wall Street" won't do a thing to improve anybody's lot.[/b]

To be effective, a purpose and plan of action is needed; otherwise, it's nothing more than a tantrum.
[/quote]

Except for a few pizzerias.

[quote name='BG45' timestamp='1318017865' post='2317590']
Adrestia and Nick already covered my points that I could've rebutted to lol. So props to them; Adrestia with the Herman Cain quote where he said "Don't blame Wall Street. Don't blame the big banks. If you don't have a job and you're not rich, blame yourself." And Nick by pointing out that it was a similar situation in so far as the government was propping up a failing corporation.

I find it fascinating that the media and people in this thread are ascribing goals to[b] this movement that has not yet decided on set goals for itself.[/b] As was stated earlier, people seem confused in interviews as to what they actually want. Some are for regulation, some are for a wider free market (or so I would assume given the backing of libertarian Republicans like Rep. Ron Paul), etc.
[/quote]

(the bold part) Is exactly why the movement is silly. At this point they don't stand for anything except camping out in streets to complain about poo. At least if they had a concise motive for protest, even if I didn't agree, it'd make sense.

[Socrates]

[quote name='BG45' timestamp='1318017865' post='2317590']
Adrestia and Nick already covered my points that I could've rebutted to lol. So props to them; Adrestia with the Herman Cain quote where he said "Don't blame Wall Street. Don't blame the big banks. If you don't have a job and you're not rich, blame yourself." And Nick by pointing out that it was a similar situation in so far as the government was propping up a failing corporation.[/quote]
It seems to me Cain is calling for people to take responsibility for themselves, rather than sitting around blaming others for everything - it's an attack on the current culture of victimhood and entitlement.

[quote]I find it fascinating that the media and people in this thread are ascribing goals to this movement that has not yet decided on set goals for itself. As was stated earlier, people seem confused in interviews as to what they actually want. Some are for regulation, some are for a wider free market (or so I would assume given the backing of libertarian Republicans like Rep. Ron Paul), etc.[/quote]
According to the original organizers of the protest, the radical leftist Adbusters, the chief demand is: " we demand that Barack Obama ordain a Presidential Commission tasked with ending the influence money has over our representatives in Washington" ([url="http://www.adbusters.org/blogs/adbusters-blog/occupywallstreet.html"]http://www.adbusters.org/blogs/adbusters-blog/occupywallstreet.html[/url])

In other words, they think expanding government power is the way to fight government corruption.

As is any mob, there will be people attending for other reasons, or for no real reason other than to make noise and raise hell, but at its core, this seems to be a leftist movement.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1318118112' post='2318157']
According to the original organizers of the protest, the radical leftist Adbusters, the chief demand is: " we demand that Barack Obama ordain a Presidential Commission tasked with ending the influence money has over our representatives in Washington" ([url="http://www.adbusters.org/blogs/adbusters-blog/occupywallstreet.html"]http://www.adbusters...wallstreet.html[/url])

In other words, they think expanding government power is the way to fight government corruption.
[/quote]

this is incredibly stupid. The act of making bribes illegal is not "more big government" and just the same, something like making campaign contributions public, or trying to avoid appointing people with too vested an interest(like they should be) is not "big bad government". it just makes sense.