More On P0Rn

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' timestamp='1321659865' post='2338057']I was so clear in the fact that I was making a supposition, not stating a fact, though. I am pretty sure (but I'll try to find evidence) that it's biologically factual that mens' brains are more visually stimulated than womens'. I know from your previous posts that you're very defensive about the issue of women and porn, which is why I made the caveat in the first place. I thought that most people were in agreement that the reason why porn was addicting for women was different from why it was addicting for men. I never denied that it was equally addicting... just that it APPEARS (note my reservations!) to be addictive in a different way. (Part of the defense for my statement, by the way, is that although porn is addicting to women it is FAR more addicting for men. At the very least, men are in the majority.)[/quote]

i'm very defensive about the issue? no one else on the boards is passionate about speaking up about this topic? i think anyone is sensitive to issues that they have familiarity with, like being passionate about the defense of the pre-born; or gay marriage; or democrats/republicans stink; or NFP; or 'xyz' issue.

anyway, that little snippy comment of yours aside, of course it seems like men are the majority....from most Christians' perspective, men are the only ones who have a problem with porn, not 'good Christian women'. (I second whomever brought up the blog http://goodwomenproject.com/ )

btw, I truly wasn't trying to make it about you or your post, but challenging the assumption that men are more visually stimulated than women are...because i keep hearing that assumption but no one ever seems to back it up.

here's my totally unsubstantiated belief: i think the gateway into porn is different for women than it is for men.

[Lil Red]

http://goodwomenproject.com/pornography/lessons-from-a-recovering-addict

I think this is a great blogpost that speaks to the addictions that women face.

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1321661891' post='2338063']

i'm very defensive about the issue? no one else on the boards is passionate about speaking up about this topic? [/quote]
Please don't put words in my mouth. Did I need to say, "because you [b]and others[/b] were defensive about the issue" to get my point across without being called out on it?

[quote]i think anyone is sensitive to issues that they have familiarity with, like being passionate about the defense of the pre-born; or gay marriage; or democrats/republicans stink; or NFP; or 'xyz' issue.[/quote]
Umm yeah, including myself, which is why I'm having this conversation in the first place.

[quote]
anyway, that little snippy comment of yours aside, of course it seems like men are the majority....from most Christians' perspective, men are the only ones who have a problem with porn, not 'good Christian women'. (I second whomever brought up the blog [url="http://goodwomenproject.com/"]http://goodwomenproject.com/[/url] )[/quote]
Your interpretation is that it was snippy. It wasn't snippy in my brain when I was typing it. Can you point out which part offended you because I'm genuinely confused by which part of my clarification warranted that.
[quote]
btw, I truly wasn't trying to make it about you or your post, but challenging the assumption that men are more visually stimulated than women are...because i keep hearing that assumption but no one ever seems to back it up.[/quote]
Which is why I tried to back it up.

[quote]]here's my totally unsubstantiated belief: i think the gateway into porn is different for women than it is for men.
[/quote]
Are you agreeing with me here?

Sorry, I really fail to see where I offended you in any way. I can assure you that from my vantage point, I never ill-directed anything towards you and that that was completely your interpretation and not my intention.

[Guest]

Last time I will derail this thread. I just want it to be known I don't think any woman "deserves" to be lusted after. And I do realise there are a lot of broken and lost girls who go in magazines. Even ones like sports illustrated that are more classy. With that said though I think there are many who are full aware of what they are doing and aren't broken and lost and all that. With that said I don't think any of them deserve to be lusted after. All I was saying was its sorta a cause and effect type deal when they hput themselves out there like that. But in noway do I think they deserve it. I don't think I ever really said that but if I implied that I'm sorry. Ok I'm done.

Edited November 19, 2011 by Guest

[Guest]

[quote name='MissyP89' timestamp='1321649700' post='2337992']

If THEY don't care, YOU need to care.

If SHE doesn't value herself, YOU should.

You need to rise up and be the better person, always. That's Christianity at the core.

What if someone was saying this stuff about your sister? Is that how you would respond? "Well, she's asking for it."

Give me a break.[/quote] ok I should of defended myself from this before. I just read all the post in order. Nowhere did I say o well she's asking for it or whatever you claimed I said. So you were out of line with that. If I inferred something like that again I'm sorry. Ok peace.

[missionseeker]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1321646224' post='2337970']
Although if just lusting after women in a sports illustrated swimsuit edition or something like that it doesn't seem as bad.[b] Because they know exactly what they are doing and their asking for it[/b]. I have a hard time feeling guilt there opposed to lusting after female friends or what not.
[/quote]
[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1321689720' post='2338189']
ok I should of defended myself from this before. I just read all the post in order. Nowhere did I say o well she's asking for it or whatever you claimed I said. So you were out of line with that. If I inferred something like that again I'm sorry. Ok peace.
[/quote]


Thanks for clarifying. Perhaps that is not quite what you meant, but it is indeed what you said.

[Guest]

[quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1321692640' post='2338192']



Thanks for clarifying. Perhaps that is not quite what you meant, but it is indeed what you said.[/quote] ok thank you for finding that. I am then sincerly sorry. Because that's not how I really feel. Although I did say that. So I was way out of line. Sorry missy and to whoever else I offended in this thread. No woman deserves to be lusted after. Ok goodnight.

[Guest]

I think what I meant was I feel less guilt because they are bringing it on themselves in a way by taking the pictures they do. And when its something like sports illustrated and not some trashy magazine it makes me feel the girls are smart and aren't totally naive to how guys will react to seeing the pictures. Not that the girls posing in trashy mags are naive. But I would venture to say those are the type of girls who are really broken and lost. But anyhow in no way does any woman deserve to be lusted after and I was way out of line for saying that. Prayers for me and I'm fully aware I need them big time. Ok really hope this is the last time I post in here. Sorry again.

Edited November 19, 2011 by Guest

[Nunsense]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1321693927' post='2338195']
I think what I meant was I feel less guilt because they are bringing it on themselves in a way by taking the pictures they do. And when its something like sports illustrated and not some trashy magazine it makes me feel the girls are smart and aren't totally naive to how guys will react to seeing the pictures. Not that the girls posing in trashy mags are naive. But I would venture to say those are the type of girls who are really broken and lost. But anyhow in no way does any woman deserve to be lusted after and I was way out of line for saying that. Prayers for me and I'm fully aware I need them big time. Ok really hope this is the last time I post in here. Sorry again.
[/quote]


I think you've hit the nail on the head here deliveryboy. You know that what you are doing is wrong but you don't want to feel guilty about it, so you rationalise and make excuses to justify your behaviour or to make it seem not quite as bad as it is. The fact that you feel guilt is a good thing - it means that you recognise sin. Yes, we all will pray for you in your trials and temptations, but might I also suggest trying to find a Confessor who could help you a bit more? None of us can judge what your priest tells you since he has all the details and we don't, but the fact that you, youself feel guilty, seems to indicate that it is probably more serious than even he understands. Our conscience SHOULD be telling us when we are sinning, and perhaps you rationalise to him so much that he 'lets you off the hook' instead of pulling you up on this matter? I don't know. But since you indicate that you feel guilt, it sounds like the only answer is to throw out all the SI magazines or other printed material and stop buying it under the false illusion that it is better than the 'hard stuff'. At least with the hard stuff, you seem to know it is wrong... with these other 'classy' magazines you are trying to cover up this knowledge - they both lead you to commit the same sin though, don't they?

Many prayers for you

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1321695145' post='2338197']


I think you've hit the nail on the head here deliveryboy. You know that what you are doing is wrong but you don't want to feel guilty about it, so you rationalise and make excuses to justify your behaviour or to make it seem not quite as bad as it is.
[/quote]
This is exactly it. I was going to bring it up earlier but I forgot to do so.

[Guest]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1321695145' post='2338197']


I think you've hit the nail on the head here deliveryboy. You know that what you are doing is wrong but you don't want to feel guilty about it, so you rationalise and make excuses to justify your behaviour or to make it seem not quite as bad as it is. The fact that you feel guilt is a good thing - it means that you recognise sin. Yes, we all will pray for you in your trials and temptations, but might I also suggest trying to find a Confessor who could help you a bit more? None of us can judge what your priest tells you since he has all the details and we don't, but the fact that you, youself feel guilty, seems to indicate that it is probably more serious than even he understands. Our conscience SHOULD be telling us when we are sinning, and perhaps you rationalise to him so much that he 'lets you off the hook' instead of pulling you up on this matter? I don't know. But since you indicate that you feel guilt, it sounds like the only answer is to throw out all the SI magazines or other printed material and stop buying it under the false illusion that it is better than the 'hard stuff'. At least with the hard stuff, you seem to know it is wrong... with these other 'classy' magazines you are trying to cover up this knowledge - they both lead you to commit the same sin though, don't they?

Many prayers for you [/quote] Ya I rationalise a ton. I guess I make it ok in my mind because its just me and I'm not hurting anyone else. And I pat myself on the back to much because I don't go out and have sex. And I don't get detailed when I go to confession. I just say " masturbation 5 times " lol I don't go into detail. Its ackward enough. But I don't know. Anyhow thanks for the reply and Godbless ya.

Edited November 19, 2011 by Guest

[Guest]

I guess I don't understand what a single male is supposed to do with a strong sex drive. I mean if you're not having sex and you're not married that urge is still there. It don't go away. That's why I don't think most guys feel that guilty about it. I don't feel guilty about masturbation. I feel guilty though lusting after a female. But its not as bad if its someone I don't know. And I know that is messed up on my part and wrong. And I know what Jesus said about looking with lust. But Jesus also made me with all this testosterone going through my body so sometimes its like what the heck ? What do you expect from me. lol

[Nunsense]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1321697784' post='2338200']
I guess I don't understand what a single male is supposed to do with a strong sex drive. I mean if you're not having sex and you're not married that urge is still there. It don't go away. That's why I don't think most guys feel that guilty about it. I don't feel guilty about masturbation. I feel guilty though lusting after a female. But its not as bad if its someone I don't know. And I know that is messed up on my part and wrong. And I know what Jesus said about looking with lust. But Jesus also made me with all this testosterone going through my body so sometimes its like what the heck ? What do you expect from me. lol
[/quote]

I can't really help you since I am not a male but how about channeling some of that testosterone into tiring things like active sports such as swimming, tennis, jogging - something apart from sex? This isn't something I can offer advice about though so maybe some of the men on phatmass will offer suggestions. I would say to get your mind away from sinful thoughts and keep your body busy with other things... don't hang around home reading magazines or looking at the internet though, for a start....??

[Nunsense]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1321697441' post='2338199']
Ya I rationalise a ton. I guess I make it ok in my mind because its just me and I'm not hurting anyone else. And I pat myself on the back to much because I don't go out and have sex. [/quote]

But you are hurting yourself - the part of you that matters most, the soul, as all sin hurts the soul. Not that God won't forgive you, He will, but Jesus said not to fear those who can kill the body, only those who can kill the body and the soul... so obviously the soul is more important than the body in His eyes.

And rather than patting yourself on the back for the sins you don't commit, be sorrowful for those you do.. that way you can at least ask for forgiveness and help.

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1321698773' post='2338202']

I can't really help you since I am not a male but how about channeling some of that testosterone into tiring things like active sports such as swimming, tennis, jogging - something apart from sex?
[/quote]

YES.

[brianthephysicist]

Before I start, sorry for the randomness of my thought train and for the lack of quoting previous posts

First, to women: please don't feel like it is your responsibility to wear burkas everywhere. I mean yes, dressing modestly is helpful, but ultimately it comes down to a man's decision of whether or not he's going to lust after a woman. When a woman dresses modestly, she makes it easier for a man to affirm her dignity, but a man should affirm her dignity simply because she is one of God's beloved daughters, irregardless of what she wears. Let's face it, repression gets us nowhere

I want to reemphasize something I only briefly mentioned in my last post. The only way to break the cycle of addiction is to stop sugar-coating it and realize that it is a matter of life and death. I believe Nihil expounded on this point quite well, saying something to the effect of us being judged by our actions, and our actions alone; not by comparing us to those around us or by using some scorecard. It is far too easy to rationalize ourselves into this type of moral relativism.

There's a metaphor I heard once for our sinful actions: Think about a toddler. Every day that toddler is learning new things and growing bigger and stronger. Then, one day, he/she takes the initiative to stand up and try to walk. That little toddler is only going to make it a few steps before falling right back on its butt. The parents of that child are ecstatic that the child took its first steps. They knew that the baby was going to fall on its butt soon after standing, but the fact that their child is making progress brings joy to their hearts. I truly believe that God is happy when we make that effort to stand up and truly see how long we can stay standing. He knows that we're not very strong, especially in the beginning, but He is pleased by our desire to please Him. When we are standing up, out of our sins, and we fall back down into that behavior again, it hurts. A lot. But we have a decision to make: we can choose to continue sitting in our sin, where we feel "comfortable" and we can rationalize it by saying "it hurts too much to fall" (most often for me, that's pride talking), or we can pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and try again to rise up over our sinful behavior and live out a life that is pleasing to God.

Okay kind of random, but DB: stop blaming this on testosterone. I'm 22. I'll show you testosterone. Nunsense mentioned some wholesome physical activities that you can put your energy into and she's completely right. I don't really know how to express this properly, but testosterone gives you a drive. It is most easily associated with the sex drive, but when we temper our thoughts and actions, we can use this drive for whatever we wish. When someone tells us to "be a man", they're telling us to 1) tap into that reservoir of strength and courage that testosterone supplies us with, and 2) to step up to do something difficult (and usually counter-cultural). I think of so many movies where you can see brilliant examples of men willing to stand up and sacrifice everything for what they believe in. They aren't held back by their testosterone, rather they are using it for the good of others.

Also, a slight side note related to this issue. When it comes to hormones, us men kind of have it easy. From day to day, our testosterone levels stay relatively fixed. I don't know the details very well, but women have multiple hormones that affect these types of things for them and each one of them goes through a roller coaster of fluctuation over the course of a week. Moral of the story: guys shouldn't complain about hormones.

Db, you mentioned in one of your posts, something along the lines of "If I had simply told you that I don't watch porn and I haven't had sex in 5 years that you would all be saying great job". Great job! That's amesome! It really is. I'm so happy that God has given you the grace to be able to do that. Please don't think that any of us are attacking you. We just want to help you to take the next step to become closer to God. A metaphor that I've heard in regard to this has to do with report cards. Assume that for your program, you need a C+ or higher to advance. Imagine at the end of a semester getting your final grades and seeing 3 A's, a C-, and a D. To get those A's, you had to put in a little bit of work, but not very much. You spent at least 3 to 4 times as much time and effort on each of those two classes than you did on all three of your other classes. It feels like it was time wasted. Because you have to take the two classes again in order to advance, it feels as if it was exactly the same as completely failing. You get this sense of "what's the point of even trying?" We can despair in this "failure", or we can take this as an opportunity to say "okay, I'm not entirely happy with the outcome, but I gave a good effort. Now I will ask my professor and some of the other students what more I can do the next time around." Each of us has our own crosses to bear, our own sins that we find difficult. We can rationalize away our sins or we can continue to confront them, always looking for new ways to overcome them.

I have to agree with LilRed about Satan 'dressing things up' to look good when they are not. The SI Swimsuit magazine is not classy. End of story.

Something I got a glimpse of when I started to rid myself of this addiction was that everything is connected. Missy posted about how sexual sins mess up person as a whole and she is completely right. Every part of our morality is connected. When we sin, we choose to create a rift between ourselves and God. By continuing to live in sin, we move farther and farther from Him. How can we possibly hope that this will only affect one small part of our morality. By accepting that it is "okay" to live without in this part of our lives, we begin to drive Him out of other parts as well. The funny thing about all of this, is that we can actually use the opposite of this effect to our advantage. By opening our heart to God, letting Him into some of the smaller parts of our life that seem unrelated, it has a positive effect on helping us rid ourselves of the bigger things. Another way to put this (and one that feels more practical at certain times), is that a lack of discipline in one part of our lives can begin to erode discipline in other areas, but the converse is true, in that by increasing discipline in one aspect of our lives, it can help us to tackle discipline problems in other areas.

For me, breaking this addiction and staying chaste, was and is only possible through the grace of God. I have spent an incredible amount of time praying for the intercessions of the Blessed Virgin Mary and St. Joseph, her most chaste spouse. I can't even begin to describe how much help they've been for me. Not only was their intercession helpful, but their example as well. We're called to live out a life like Jesus. I try to do that, but I'm not perfect and it doesn't always work. On those days when I'm close to despair over my situation, I think about Mary, Joseph, and the other saints, because (even though Jesus was 100% human in addition to being 100% divine) sometimes it's easier to relate to someone that was only human but that was still able to live out God's will for their life. They have given me confidence that it is possible to find a way to walk with God.

Edited November 19, 2011 by brianthephysicist

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye' timestamp='1321585100' post='2337721']sure we all know that right so why you wanna look at another dudes penis for any extended period of time if your a dude [/QUOTE]

still not as gay as twilight

[4588686]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1321688766' post='2338184']
[b]Last time I will derail this thread. I just want it to be known I don't think any woman "deserves" to be lusted after. [/b]
[/quote]

Sure they do. Every woman (and every man, for that matter) deserves to be lusted after, to feel sexually desired and wanted.

[Sarah147]

"Lust" is sinful. Women don't deserve to be looked over like a piece of meat. Maybe you mean "attraction"?

[4588686]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1321748680' post='2338385']
"Lust" is sinful. Women don't deserve to be looked over like a piece of meat. Maybe you mean "attraction"?
[/quote]


Some people like to be objectified.

But I was speaking of lust as a strong sexual attraction, not necessarily pure objectification. I think that women (and men) deserve more than just being lusted after, but being lusted after in itself can be nice too. People like feeling sexually desirable.

Edited November 20, 2011 by Hasan