havok579257 Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1351835410' post='2502779'] I'll answer your question: No, it's not moral. But are businesses subject to Catholic morality? If so, who is to be the auditor of this new ethic? Should the U.S. government be empowered to evaluate and enforce? [/quote] everyone is subject to catholic morality because it is God's morality.
kujo Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 Oh yeah. I can totally roll up to my local ER and get a round of chemo and brain surgery on the cheap. No problemo.
havok579257 Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 (edited) another example is medicare. with medicare you get 30 days ina rehab center. that's it. then your booted out. no matter if you need more rehab or not. do you know how much time and money is wasted because a person was booted out of a rehab center after 30 days but can either not deal with their condition or not care for themselfs in their current condition because they have no healed properly and so on a weekly basis is calling 911 for an ambulance transport(1200 just to transport, does not count milegae, does not count any supplies used) to go to the hospital to try to get help and is told you need rehab but medicare won't pay for it and then they are discharged with pain medication. it happens. Edited November 2, 2012 by havok579257
missionseeker Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1351833094' post='2502740'] so you think its moral for someone who develops cancer can be denied by every single insurance company and then be unable to pay for medication and treatments that can prolong and improve quality of life? [/quote] The original purpose of health insurance was not to cover every little thing. It was much like car insurance, actually. You need it, you pay for it for if you have a wreck. But you still have to pay for gas and for oil changes. When people expect insurance to pay for everything it gets difficult. (And I haven't decided how i think this problem should be handled. I tend to think it would be a good idea to get rid of insurance altogether except for emergencies. The insurance costs caused health care costs to sky rocket.) That said, most doctors are willing to work with patients without insurance. I know my eye doctor offers people without insurance the same price as though on Medicare. I think that is a valid way to do it. Most hospitals you can haggle with, believe it or not. The price the insurance pays is drastically different from what you are charged. I don't know enough about how this works to say much more, but I have had to haggle with them. They will settle for HUNDREDS of dollars less than they charge. I have really good insurance right now. I have quite a few things that are wrong (back problems, asthma, etc.) and I am grateful. But I have been in the situation where I could not get help for medical issues (like asthma) because I couldn't afford it. I don't think applying moral standards to insurance companies is going to work. Which means that a company has the right to deny someone coverage.
havok579257 Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 [quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1351836600' post='2502797'] The original purpose of health insurance was not to cover every little thing. It was much like car insurance, actually. You need it, you pay for it for if you have a wreck. But you still have to pay for gas and for oil changes. When people expect insurance to pay for everything it gets difficult. (And I haven't decided how i think this problem should be handled. I tend to think it would be a good idea to get rid of insurance altogether except for emergencies. The insurance costs caused health care costs to sky rocket.) That said, most doctors are willing to work with patients without insurance. I know my eye doctor offers people without insurance the same price as though on Medicare. I think that is a valid way to do it. Most hospitals you can haggle with, believe it or not. The price the insurance pays is drastically different from what you are charged. I don't know enough about how this works to say much more, but I have had to haggle with them. They will settle for HUNDREDS of dollars less than they charge. I have really good insurance right now. I have quite a few things that are wrong (back problems, asthma, etc.) and I am grateful. But I have been in the situation where I could not get help for medical issues (like asthma) because I couldn't afford it. I don't think applying moral standards to insurance companies is going to work. Which means that a company has the right to deny someone coverage. [/quote] i think we should apply moral standards to every person and business. does the church teach that not everyone has moral responsibilities? the hospital can do nothing fore your no life threatening conditions. such as cancer and needed chemo treatments and medication therapy for cancer. there is no payment plan a avergae person can work out with the hospital for chemo treatments(the cost is way to much). oh the hospital will treat you when you get there but they will not let you come in on a weekley basis for chemo and wil not fill your medication on a monthly basis for free or on a payment plan. it doesn't work that way when it comes to things that are not life threatening and costhow much chemo costs.
missionseeker Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 it's up to the individual person to make moral choices. Not companies, not governments, not corpoations, not political parties. PERSONS. The health care insurance system is flawed. But mandating morality won't fix it.
kujo Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 [quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1351837428' post='2502804'] it's up to the individual person to make moral choices. Not companies, not governments, not corpoations, not political parties. PERSONS. The health care insurance system is flawed. But mandating morality won't fix it. [/quote] Companies, governments, corporations and political parties are human constructs.
havok579257 Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 [quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1351837428' post='2502804'] it's up to the individual person to make moral choices. Not companies, not governments, not corpoations, not political parties. PERSONS. The health care insurance system is flawed. But mandating morality won't fix it. [/quote] so its ok when the government is immoral? like with abortion and allowing gay marriage and giving free contracetptives? so we shouldn't mandate abortion as illegal? gay marriage as illegal? your arguement seems really weak. morality should be attached to everything and everyone. every person, government, company has an obligation to adhere to the morals God put in place. NO one should have cart blanche for not having to follow the moral choice.
kujo Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 havok's argument tactic is to just bombard everyone with crazy strawman and reductive reasoning from every single angle, like an octopus beating you with a pool stick in each arm. It's hilarious to watch.
havok579257 Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1351837937' post='2502811'] havok's argument tactic is to just bombard everyone with crazy strawman and reductive reasoning from every single angle, like an octopus beating you with a pool stick in each arm. It's hilarious to watch. [/quote] so you disagree with my point on denying healthcare coverage? that companies or governments do not get a pass on morality?
kujo Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1351838111' post='2502814'] so you disagree with my point on denying healthcare coverage? that companies or governments do not get a pass on morality? [/quote] Not at all. I was making a general observation. I could be like "People shouldn't eat fast food" and your response would be like "so we should tell people what they should eat? does the church say that's okay? does the government get to tell us what to think and feel too? should we just trust the new world order to control our every choice? abortiongaymarriageblaghhhh>'
havok579257 Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1351838236' post='2502816'] Not at all. I was making a general observation. I could be like "People shouldn't eat fast food" and your response would be like "so we should tell people what they should eat? does the church say that's okay? does the government get to tell us what to think and feel too? should we just trust the new world order to control our every choice? abortiongaymarriageblaghhhh>' [/quote] well that would not be my response so fail on your part. good times though.
kujo Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1351838365' post='2502818'] well that would not be my response so fail on your part. good times though. [/quote] Perhaps I got the verbiage wrong, but the spirit is still the same.
havok579257 Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1351838538' post='2502822'] Perhaps I got the verbiage wrong, but the spirit is still the same. [/quote] nope, your wrong. nice try though.
kujo Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1351838954' post='2502826'] nope, your wrong. nice try though. [/quote] Havok, sometimes I feel like I could say "water is wet" and you'd just disagree with me on principle.
havok579257 Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1351839066' post='2502830'] Havok, sometimes I feel like I could say "water is wet" and you'd just disagree with me on principle. [/quote] water would actually be classified better as a liquid.
kujo Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 (edited) [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1351839274' post='2502836'] water would actually be classified better as a liquid. [/quote] You never disappoint. (EDIT: That might not be true. I don't know you. It could be that you're a tremendous, [b]stupid[/b] failure. How would I know?) Edited November 2, 2012 by kujo
qfnol31 Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1351839066' post='2502830'] Havok, sometimes I feel like I could say "water is wet" and you'd just disagree with me on principle. [/quote] [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1351839274' post='2502836'] water would actually be classified better as a liquid. [/quote]kujo, I just want you to know that havok's props are meant for you too here. You gave me a chuckle.
kujo Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 [quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1351839369' post='2502839'] kujo, I just want you to know that havok's props are meant for you too here. You gave me a chuckle. [/quote] Havok is good people. Although, not gonna lie, I have a sneaking suspicion that his face looks like this when he posts on here: [img]http://mimg.ugo.com/201102/7/9/7/175797/cuts/duhh_528x297.jpg[/img]
havok579257 Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1351839560' post='2502842'] Havok is good people. Although, not gonna lie, I have a sneaking suspicion that his face looks like this when he posts on here: [img]http://mimg.ugo.com/201102/7/9/7/175797/cuts/duhh_528x297.jpg[/img] [/quote] absolutely. that is exactly what i look like whil i am reading your posts and trying to decifer any logic from it.
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