Anomaly Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 (edited) Obviously, morality is nothing but arbitrary construct. Either make your own or get a list from on organization. Strictly voluntary. Edited November 9, 2012 by Anomaly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 morality is a matter of conscience. you are supposed to have a well-formed conscience; a Catholic ought to ensure that their conscience is informed by Catholic doctrines, but within that framework there is great intellectual freedom and there ought to be free debate and discussion on many issues. within the faith, it is not merely arbitrary. of course, outside of the faith, there is a certain arbitrarity to what sources you let your conscience be informed by. but you will still be subject to the norms of right reason when debating, and I think at the very least you should feel obligated to engage in debate and discussion with others to make a well-informed conscience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixpence Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 My two cents on the issue: I think this is one of those things that comes down to a matter of conscience and a matter of degree. Am I relying on the drug to make my life better? Am I doing serious harm to my body? Am I more tempted to do bad stuff when I use the drug? I would say you could apply these questions to anything (alcohol, tobacco, coffee, marijuana) and if you answer yes to any of these you have a problem. If not, it is up to you to look at why you are consuming the substance, and determine if the intention is morally acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 (edited) I am just pointing out the selective application of Catholic morality. Don't steal, but you can coerce contributions to the Church. You must earn your bread unless you won't, then you can steal. It makes no difference between can or won't. Intent matters, affect doesn't. Pray is better than do so you won't be condemned as utilitarian. If it doesn't bother you, it's okay, unless its on the Church list.... If the Church says no, it's a sin, if it hasn't, you're good to go. So really, since the Church is so clear and the spring and foundation of morality, your intellect is used to find out if the Church has said yes, no, or present. Got it. Edited November 9, 2012 by Anomaly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 (edited) that analysis projects your own bias so much it's not even worth addressing. there can certainly be a critique, but there is no universe in which your last post's critique has in any way attempted to understand the way the Catholic understanding of morality works. You project your own system onto the Catholic system (don't pretend that because you used to be Catholic that means you can do that), and of course it fails the tests of your system because it is not structured that way. It's like complaining about quantum mechanics because it doesn't fit with Newtonian physics. The fact is that there is a functioning system of morality that is not at all as arbitrary/selective as you are painting it to be. Whether you agree with it or not is another story, but your analysis is laughably inadequate. Edited November 9, 2012 by Aloysius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 [quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1352469138' post='2507131'] that analysis projects your own bias so much it's not even worth addressing. there can certainly be a critique, but there is no universe in which your last post's critique has in any way attempted to understand the way the Catholic understanding of morality works. You project your own system onto the Catholic system (don't pretend that because you used to be Catholic that means you can do that), and of course it fails the tests of your system because it is not structured that way. It's like complaining about quantum mechanics because it doesn't fit with Newtonian physics. The fact is that there is a functioning system of morality that is not at all as arbitrary/selective as you are painting it to be. Whether you agree with it or not is another story, but your analysis is laughably inadequate. [/quote] My post was intended to be over the top and ridiculous to highlight the point that morality, what it is, how it is formed, what role it plays in personal and public life isn't arbitrary. There should be fundamental principles and reasons why that go beyond enjoying maximum personal freedom and figuring out the literal rules of the Church. How does legaliing pot make for a better society? Because having rules against purposely getting stoned to escape from reality is harmful in a society that will take my money to support poor regardless of whether the CAN work or CHOOSE NOT to work? Pot's okay because it doesn't kill you, but there isn't any consideration to the idea of using chemicals to avoid thinking about the poo in life? Isn't that 'purpose' for inebriation why alcohol becomes a problem for many when they drink to 'deal with life'? Have you ever been to an AA meeting? Do you know any alcoholics or addicts who's addiction is a mental dependency that is far beyond a physical addiction? Being high only makes you feel better about your problems, and does NOTHING to solve them. It's fine for the elite with the intellect and money and luck who can go to college, have advantages the vast majority don't have and couldn't dream of. If you consider yourself lucky to be able to have food, clothinig, and a roof, (or much less) the appeal of smoking a joint, getting drunk, or stoned is pretty strong. Congratulations, your need for personal freedom just re-inforced the chemical solution for life's angsts and will help provide a cheaper and more readily available source, with the bonus of contributing to the idea that we don't have an obligation to consider a limit to our individual choices in society even if doing so may benefit others in society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 I am in favor of treating drug problems from a medical perspective rather than a legal perspective, just like alcohol abuse should be treated. I don't think that the numbers of non-violent drug offenders that have been placed in prisons is at all conducive to a better society, nor do I think that the money and power it has given to violent criminals is at all conducive to a better society. But other than that I had a hard time following your train of thought... I am not here arguing that use of drugs is moral (though I did question how definitively it's been said to be a mortal sin in and of itself, I would think it'd be a mortal sin the way drunkenness is a mortal sin). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 [quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1352448148' post='2507003'] says "no" to what? Drug use? Drug abuse? Because if it's the former then why don't all psychoactive substances fall under the supposed ban? [/quote] There maybe an exemption for medical use but any other use is abuse and the Church says no and says it should not be made legal. So again what Apo said... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven77 Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 i understand why marijuana should not be illegal (for explicitly medicinal purposes) but i don't understand why recreational use of marijuana should be legal. similarly, I don't understand why tobacco is not illegal. science shows that tobacco is harmful to lungs; marijuana is harmful to the brain. liberty does not mean people have the right to be so scientifically and ethically repressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 (edited) lol ok so there MAY be an exception for medical use and all other use is abuse and mortal sin.... yes God......o wait youre not god youre knight of christ church militant tag removed guy............................and anomaly....smoking does the opposite for me....I don't forget my problems when I smoke I think about them more....in depth......so I don't escape problems of life by smoking marijuana....if I want to escape problems of life I will drink alcohol.....that does the trick and my mind is "altered" and all I'm thinking about is how these women all got hotter and how now I have the courage to approach them... Edited November 9, 2012 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven77 Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 The previous post seems to illustrate my point. Sorry Delivery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 liberty means that people should not be violently coerced against engaging in non-violent activities, even if those activities might be harmful to themselves. one must look at the negative effects of a particular sinful action on society and then weigh that according to whether violence is justified in order to suppress that action. there is no way the level of violence we have risen to in the "war on drugs" is in any way morally justified, especially when it comes to marijuana. the moral issue is a completely separate issue than the legal issue, plenty of immoral things absolutely should not be made illegal, God gave us free will so that we could freely choose good actions; there are bad actions that we must be violently coerced against engaging in for the good of society, but sex, drugs, and rock and roll do not qualify for that IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 777 I was responding to knight of christ....I didn't even see your post...I should have quoted him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven77 Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 [quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1352479080' post='2507205'] liberty means that people should not be violently coerced against engaging in non-violent activities, even if those activities might be harmful to themselves. one must look at the negative effects of a particular sinful action on society and then weigh that according to whether violence is justified in order to suppress that action. there is no way the level of violence we have risen to in the "war on drugs" is in any way morally justified, especially when it comes to marijuana. the moral issue is a completely separate issue than the legal issue, plenty of immoral things absolutely should not be made illegal, God gave us free will so that we could freely choose good actions; there are bad actions that we must be violently coerced against engaging in for the good of society, but sex, drugs, and rock and roll do not qualify for that IMO. [/quote] i suppose on this issue there is a fine line between liberty and totalitarian control---if weed is not exactly the same as crack or herion. legalization of marijuana should be accompanied by serious education and health warnings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted November 9, 2012 Author Share Posted November 9, 2012 Delivery Boy, I have a bad memory because I use to smoke a lot of weed in high school, but if I remember correctly, Knight and Apo asked to have their tags removed for some disagreement over the pope's shoes or something. They just haven't asked for them back yet. Of course, I could have just totally fabricated that and confused them with something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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