Forget The President, What About The Marijuana?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1352554235' post='2507688']
I have no disagreements with these sentiments. [/quote]
You do get the point that the statement opposes decriminalization.

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1352554235' post='2507688']
I still maintain that you were way out of line when you called on people who disagree on the political means by which drug abuse is dealt with to not present themselves for Holy Communion, though.[/quote]
It is not a political matter, it is a moral matter that impacts criminal law. That you do not see the difference is telling. If a person supports things that the Church condemns as immoral I have no qualms in saying that he should not present himself for Holy Communion, because by doing so he commits an act of sacrilege, and damages not only the Church, but his own soul. That is the traditional Catholic view on the reception of Holy Communion. This is true in regard to any and all attempts to decriminalize drugs, prostitution, abortion, euthanasia, and various forms of sexual deviancy. That said, I do admit that many Catholics no longer take the Eucharist seriously, and so they see no problem when a person who dissents from the Church's moral teaching receives Holy Communion. I suppose it is a sign of the time, but this kind of attitude has consequences even beyond the Catholic Church, because I have many Eastern Orthodox friends who have come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is apostate, and it is really hard to carry on an ecumenical dialogue with a person who thinks your Church no longer takes the Eucharist seriously.

[Apotheoun]

I accept the warning I received in this thread, because it is past time to speak bluntly on moral issues. God bless.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1352550793' post='2507669']
want to take a stab at that apo? what exactly is the point of that?[
[quote name='Apotheoun' timestamp='1352551256' post='2507672']
Al, I shouldn't have to tell you this, but moral truth and Catholic doctrine are not established by graphs. May God grant you many joyful years.[/quote][/quote]
Sorry J-LOL I misidentified you in this post.

Edited November 10, 2012 by Apotheoun

[Aloysius]

-_- you should probably be hired to re-write the USCCB Catholic Guide to Faithful Citizenship, it's got a far too liberalized attitude towards Catholics having differences of political opinion, people might think they're allowed to assess particular issues through analyzing the actual issues instead of just parroting a party line.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1352555598' post='2507695']
-_- you should probably be hired to re-write the USCCB Catholic Guide to Faithful Citizenship, it's got a far too liberalized attitude towards Catholics having differences of political opinion, people might think they're allowed to assess particular issues through analyzing the actual issues instead of just parroting a party line.
[/quote]
Yes, I probably should be, but the USCCB isn't authoritative for Melkites, so I doubt that they would hire me for that job.

Al, perhaps you could be hired to re-write the USCCB pro-homosexual document "Always Our Children." Oh wait, the CDF forced the USCCB to modify that document already.

Edited November 10, 2012 by Apotheoun

[Anomaly]

It's really kind if funny. The Church is against recreational drug use for the same reason it's against masturbation. It takes a dim view of self directed pleasurization that tends to draw you inward, away from interaction with others.

It's not against masturbation because of statistical evidence that the majority of significant amount torn into rapists or perverts.

If you never turn to alcohol, pot, scrip drugs, or meth to make you feel better with life's poo, what are the chances you'll turn into an addict. If you've gotten to the point you need chemical help, that's a serious matter and you're better to consult with a professional instead of self medicating.

Society, has passed the tipping point if self gratification is Job One, and Catholics don't get a pass either.

Edited November 10, 2012 by Anomaly

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1352555850' post='2507698']
It's really kind if funny. The Church is against recreational drug use for the same reason it's against masturbation. It takes a dim view of self directed pleasurization that tends to draw you inward, away from interaction with others.

It's not against masturbation because of statistical evidence that the majority of significant amount torn into rapists or perverts.

If you never turn to alcohol, pot, scrip drugs, or meth to make you feel better with life's poo, what are the chances you'll turn into an addict. If you've gotten to the point you need chemical help, that's a serious matter and you're better to consult with a professional instead of self medicating.

Society, has passed the tipping point if self gratification is Job One, and Catholics don't get a pass either.
[/quote]
This is a great post, and you have hit the nail on the head. People who are pushing for the changes that they think are "moral" or even "amoral" in connection with drugs are using the same arguments that abortion advocates, and advocates of "gay marriage" are using. They are just applying the arguments to different hot button issues.

Edited November 10, 2012 by Apotheoun

[Aloysius]

why do I get the sense that someone here thinks I'm in favor of homosexual marriage or civil unions? I'm not.

I have criticisms for the easily dissolved temporary contract that masquerades as a "marriage" by the state because of the ease of divorce, marriages are supposed to be permanent contracts. I am in favor of the state enforcing covenant marriage contracts so that people can once again marry in a way that would strongly enforce against divorce; but ultimately, the temporary easily dissolved marriage license as it exists now is no more justifiable than a gay marriage contract. marriage ought to be a permanent contract, and for that reason I promote the use of covenant marriage contracts and I think the state should enforce the terms of such contracts. I don't like that to marry in the Church I must get a marriage license similar to the easily dissoluble contracts everyone else in this society gets, but such is canon law and such is life, I'd wish a covenant marriage contract could be enforced at a state level, though. they don't enforce such provisions, sadly.

anyway Apo, so what the USCCB doesn't apply to you; neither does the Pontifical Council on Healthcare, but we're still talking about it.

Oh, and you want to compare who is using what arguments? Why not compare the sparse arguments you can find from the Church regarding drug policy to the definitive across the board statements made regarding abortion; the two are not even in the same ballpark from the Church's standpoint. there are issues for which we are absolutely free to disagree on, and issues which we can't (even though we can disagree on strategies) (the ones we can't are commonly called the 5 non-negotiables).

When it comes to abortion, innocent babies are being killed. When it comes to drugs, addicts that should be treated with mercy are being killed on no-knock warrants because of a violent war on drugs (I debated putting up videos but they're disturbing as they show people getting killed). but we're not allowed to talk about such matters, we can only talk from magisterial documents, actually addressing what's really going on (ie people who should be treated with mercy and compassion for their addiction issues are being treated inordinantly with violence and repression (I use that word because it's one of the words in the Pope's 3 pronged approach to drug issues, I think we've very much over-emphasized repression to the point of causing way more damage than good))

Edited November 10, 2012 by Aloysius

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1352556478' post='2507702']
why do I get the sense that someone here thinks I'm in favor of homosexual marriage or civil unions? I'm not.[/quote]
I didn't say that you were for it, but the Church has condemned both drug decriminalization and approval of "gay marriage." You seem to be okay with one of the two, and the arguments you are using for it can be easily transposed into the pro-homosexual marriage agenda. I am simply pointing that out. Your arguments could also be used to support abortion on demand too, but I haven't focused as much attention on that issue.

Edited November 10, 2012 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1352556478' post='2507702']
anyway Apo, so what the USCCB doesn't apply to you; neither does the Pontifical Council on Healthcare, but we're still talking about it.[/quote]
I have never claimed to be subject to the curia, but the moral principles enunciated in the document issued by the Pontifical Council, unlike what has been said in various USCCB documents, are universal, that is, they transcend the theological and doctrinal differences that exist between East and West. I think I pointed this out in an earlier post already, but you may not have read that post.

[Aloysius]

no, none of my arguments could be legitimately used to promote homosexual marriage or abortion. my arguments are particular to this issue: people are getting killed, lives are being ruined, and the addiction levels of society are not being dealt with in any legitimate manner. we're filling up our prisons, wasting tons of money, and basically doing nothing but breaking apart homes and driving people further into despair and crime. but all of these things I'm saying aren't magisterial documents, they're just real issues, so I guess I'm not being sufficiently Catholic here.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1352556478' post='2507702']
Oh, and you want to compare who is using what arguments? Why not compare the sparse arguments you can find from the Church regarding drug policy to the definitive across the board statements made regarding abortion; the two are not even in the same ballpark from the Church's standpoint. there are issues for which we are absolutely free to disagree on, and issues which we can't (even though we can disagree on strategies) (the ones we can't are commonly called the 5 non-negotiables).
[/quote]
Abortion and drug use are both mortal sins even though their gravity is different. But even a less grave mortal sin will separate you from God, so I think it is wise to avoid using drugs recreationally.

Edited November 10, 2012 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1352557024' post='2507707']
no, none of my arguments could be legitimately used to promote homosexual marriage or abortion. my arguments are particular to this issue: people are getting killed, lives are being ruined, and the addiction levels of society are not being dealt with in any legitimate manner. we're filling up our prisons, wasting tons of money, and basically doing nothing but breaking apart homes and driving people further into despair and crime. but all of these things I'm saying aren't magisterial documents, they're just real issues, so I guess I'm not being sufficiently Catholic here.
[/quote]
Yes, they can. So far your main argument has been to post a graph of how costly the "drug war" is, and I could easily post a graph that shows how much money is saved by aborting babies instead of carrying them to full term. I am sure, although I have not researched the matter, that a person could find some reason for saying that "gay marriage" is cost effective too, but most of the arguments on that issue are about "human rights." I imagine someone could argue that there is a savings in the cost of probate when one partner dies, or something like that.

Edited November 10, 2012 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1352557024' post='2507707']
no, none of my arguments could be legitimately used to promote homosexual marriage or abortion. my arguments are particular to this issue: people are getting killed, lives are being ruined, and the addiction levels of society are not being dealt with in any legitimate manner. we're filling up our prisons, wasting tons of money, and basically doing nothing but breaking apart homes and driving people further into despair and crime. but all of these things I'm saying aren't magisterial documents, they're just real issues, so I guess I'm not being sufficiently Catholic here.
[/quote]
Al, I've just be reading a lot of your posts over the past month or so, and many of your arguments have more to do with Libertarianism than Catholicism. I mean, I am sure that you know that the Catholic Church (and in particular popes) has spoken about the coercive power of the State in protecting the common good for centuries. It is a common part of Catholic teaching.

[Aloysius]

And I am all in favor of the state having coercive power in a balanced way (ie not barging into someone's home on a no-knock warrant and shooting them dead because in fear they had picked up a golf club thinking they were being robbed for the sole reason that they may have had marijuana in the home), and I am not a libertarian, nor an anarchist like many here are. I'm not even a Capitalist, actually. Your reading of my posts has lacked subtlety at best. Nothing I have said is in any way condemned by the Church. My political arguments were engagements of the particular engagement in the political sphere that I have been involved in, and there is a wide range of legitimate opinions on that regard. There are many legitimate topics under the sun that we can discuss and debate at length, and there are many legitimate opinions that we can hold to.

Edited November 10, 2012 by Aloysius

[Winchester]

[quote name='Apotheoun' timestamp='1352541983' post='2507655']
Yeah, moral busybodies like Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict. I know you don't like hearing this, but the Church is not Libertarian on moral issues (e.g., on abortion, "gay marriage," decriminalization of drugs, etc.).
[/quote]
So what's the time in jail for masturbating in the shower?

[Anomaly]

Apo, Financial considerations are a factor to argue For abortion, gay marriage, and recreational drug. The second half is the defense personal freedoms vs cooperation as a community within social mores. It's extreme susidiaryism vs extreme communalism.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1352557913' post='2507712']
And I am all in favor of it, and I am not a libertarian, nor an anarchist like many here are.[/quote]
I am happy to hear that, because both of those political theories are problematic.

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1352557913' post='2507712']I'm not even a Capitalist, actually.[/quote]
Yes, I know that. If my memory serves me, you used to be a Distributist.

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1352557913' post='2507712']Your reading of my posts has lacked subtlety at best.[/quote]
I have tried to take you at your word. Perhaps I have misread your posts, but you seem to be writing in a standard form of English, and so I doubt that to be the case.

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1352557913' post='2507712']Nothing I have said is in any way condemned by the Church.[/quote]
Since the Church opposes decriminalization of drugs, and since you have not provided me with any magisterial or papal sources (or even patristic ones) that support your position, I stand by what I have said. I find your position untenable as a Catholic.

Edited November 10, 2012 by Apotheoun

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1352557974' post='2507713']

So what's the time in jail for masturbating in the shower?
[/quote]what is the jail time for masturbating in public or movie theater?

[Winchester]

[quote name='Apotheoun' timestamp='1352550057' post='2507665']
The Church - unlike the Libertarian Party - says that the State is duty bound to oppose any and all attempts to legitimize deviant behavior (e.g., "gay marriage"), and that any person who fails to do what he can to prevent laws or actions that approve of this disgusting immorality has failed to live as he should as a Catholic.
[/quote]

[quote][size="3"]Yet, with the discernment of a true mother, the Church weighs the great burden of human weakness, and well knows the course down which the minds and actions of men are in this our age being borne. For this reason, while not conceding any right to anything save what is true and honest, she does not forbid public authority to tolerate what is at variance with truth and justice, for the sake of avoiding some greater evil, or of obtaining or preserving some greater good. God Himself in His providence, though infinitely good and powerful, permits evil to exist in the world, partly that greater good may not be impeded, and partly that greater evil may not ensue. In the government of States it is not forbidden to imitate the Ruler of the world; and, as the authority of man is powerless to prevent every evil, it has (as St. Augustine says) to overlook and leave unpunished many things which are punished, and rightly, by Divine Providence.(10) But if, in such circumstances, for the sake of the common good (and this is the only legitimate reason), human law may or even should tolerate evil, it may not and should not approve or desire evil for its own sake; for evil of itself, being a privation of good, is opposed to the common welfare which every legislator is bound to desire and defend to the best of his ability. In this, human law must endeavor to imitate God, who, as St. Thomas teaches, in allowing evil to exist in the world, "neither wills evil to be done, nor wills it not to be done, but wills only to permit it to be done; and this is good."(11) This saying of the Angelic Doctor contains briefly the whole doctrine of the permission of evil.[/size][/quote]
That's from Libertas.