Forget The President, What About The Marijuana?

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='brianthephysicist' timestamp='1352325730' post='2506040']
I know I'm jumping in completely late to this part of the discussion, but what's going to happen in these states where it has been made legal at the state level but it is still illegal on the national level?
[/quote]
I am not totally sure..but a friend of mine used to 'grow' for the state of CA.... had a bunch of hoops to jump through... seemed legit, in a very odd way....feds shut him down after 3 years.

[Guest]

100 percent you can smoke a little bowl and not be intoxicated....its the same as drinking a couple beers...the buzz is a little different but both totally holy....also from what I've read the church talks about "drugs" so say pot is legal somewhere does that make it ok ? How about caffine ? That is a drug...just because this corrupt government the same one that's killed over 50 million babies makes pot illegal doesn't mean its evil...God calls it good in the first few pages of the Bible...Again if one does not smoke and considers it sinfull I would never try to get them to and convince them its not a sin...but to the person who knows its not a sin then its not...don't feel like getting my Bible out but there are many verses that talk about not condeming yourself for something you know that's not a sin...also Paul talks about how if your concience leads you to believe its a sin then it is....but if you know its not a sin then its not...he is talking about food and drink...also what marijuana is desribed as in geneisis...it is called a food because its a seed bearing plant...God calls it good...

Edited November 7, 2012 by Guest

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1352325824' post='2506044']
If I am not mistaken we have already seen a bit of this in California (?) with federal agencies shutting down legal-at-the-state-level dispensaries and arresting the owners.[/quote]
That is correct, because the federal government has declared cannabis to be a controlled substance.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1352325972' post='2506046']
100 percent you can smoke a little bowl and not be intoxicated....its the same as drinking a couple beers...the buzz is a little different but both totally holy....also from what I've read the church talks about "drugs" so say pot is legal somewhere does that make it ok ? How about caffine ? That is a drug...just because this corrupt government the same one that's killed over 50 million babies makes pot illegal doesn't mean its evil...God calls it good in the first few pages of the Bible...Again if one does not smoke and considers it sinfull I would never try to get them to and convince them its a sin...but to the person who knows its not a sin then its not...don't feel like getting my Bible out but there are many verses that talk about not condeming yourself for something you know that's not a sin...also Paul talks about how if your concience leads you to believe its a sin then it is....but if you know its not a sin then its not...he is talking about food and drink...also what marijuana is desribed as in geneisis...it is called a food because its a seed bearing plant...God calls it good...
[/quote]
Delivery Boy, you may do what you wish. I am just informing you of the fact that the Church has declared the use of marijuana to be gravely sinful. If you do not agree with the Church, that is your business.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Apotheoun' timestamp='1352325796' post='2506043']
I am always polite, even when I disagree with a person.


I do not agree. I have seen nothing issued by the Magisterium that agrees with your viewpoint. In fact, quite the opposite, because what you are saying has been explicitly condemned as contrary to Catholic moral principles in the magisterial documents I have read. Nevertheless, feel free to provide a magisterial source that supports your position, so that I can examine it and make an informed judgment.
[/quote]
IMO this [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20021124_politica_en.html"]Doctrinal Note[/url], in speaking about a "legitmate plurality of temporal options" supports the idea that, when it comes to social issues like marijuana, certain variety of opinion is not unacceptable.

I have seen opinions of some Church leaders and Vatican departments that marijuana use is sinful. That is fine. They make good arguments. But I think there is room for their positions to develop, as they are not [i]exclusively[/i] within the realm of faith and morals.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1352326088' post='2506049']
IMO this [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20021124_politica_en.html"]Doctrinal Note[/url], in speaking about a "legitmate plurality of temporal options" supports the idea that, when it comes to social issues like marijuana, certain variety of opinion is not unacceptable.

I have seen opinions of some Church leaders and Vatican departments that marijuana use is sinful. That is fine. They make good arguments. But I think there is room for their positions to develop, as they are not [i]exclusively[/i] within the realm of faith and morals.
[/quote]
That is very nice, but also very irrelevant, because the Church has come out and explicitly condemned recreational drug use as gravely immoral, so it is not a debatable point. Moreover, the Church has also told Catholics in general, and Catholic politicians in particular, that they are to resist any and all attempts to decriminalize drugs.

Now, if you have a magisterial source that approves of decriminalization or of recreational drug use, by all means post it.

Edited November 7, 2012 by Apotheoun

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Apotheoun' timestamp='1352326281' post='2506055']
That is very nice, but also very irrelevant, because the Church has come out and explicitly condemned recreational drug use as gravely immoral, so it is not a debatable point. Moreover, the Church has also told Catholics in general, and Catholic politicians in particular, that they are resist any and all attempts to decriminalize drugs.

Now, if you have a magisterial source that approves of decriminalization or of recreational drug use, by all means post it.
[/quote]
As I said, I think many sources support the concept that a legitimate plurality of opinion is acceptable to faithful Catholics. In which case "condemnations" are necessarily going to be conditional of certain assumptions of a social and scientific nature, not falling within the category of faith and morals. You have simply rejected that, but you have not supported it whatsoever.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1352322450' post='2505973']
Well first off it is well established that marijuana is not new.
[/quote]Stop right there. Marijuana use has not been as incorporated in almost all cultures for thousands of years like alcohol. You can't just dismiss that fact. What history does it have that approaches beer making, wine making, etc. Alcohol wasn't introduced to society a recreational intoxicant. The vast majority of pot use in America is specifically for recreational use. It's disingenuous to believe that won't be the primary use if legalized.

Considering the known negatives of recreational intoxicants and potential other negatives, what is the counterbalancing NEED of society to accommodate the known and potential negatives and risks.

[Guest]

[quote name='Apotheoun' timestamp='1352326073' post='2506048']

Delivery Boy, you may do what you wish. I am just informing you of the fact that the Church has declared the use of marijuana to be gravely sinful. If you do not agree with the Church, that is your business.
[/quote] hi apotheoun...show me where it specifically applies to marijauna...also what if I live somme where its been legal...does this still apply ?

Edited November 7, 2012 by Guest

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1352326468' post='2506058']
Stop right there. Marijuana use has not been as incorporated in almost all cultures for thousands of years like alcohol. You can't just dismiss that fact. What history does it have that approaches beer making, wine making, etc. Alcohol wasn't introduced to society a recreational intoxicant. The vast majority of pot use in America is specifically for recreational use. It's disingenuous to believe that won't be the primary use if legalized.

Considering the known negatives of recreational intoxicants and potential other negatives, what is the counterbalancing NEED of society to accommodate the known and potential negatives and risks.
[/quote]
Number one, I was not limiting myself to America, and I do not know why anyone should.
Number two, I quite specifically set aside that question in the rest of my response. So I do not really want to get sidetracked by such a minor point.
Number three, in several cultures it does have a very long tradition of therapeutic use.
Number four, see number two.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1352326444' post='2506057']
As I said, I think many sources support the concept that a legitimate plurality of opinion is acceptable to faithful Catholics. In which case "condemnations" are necessarily going to be conditional of certain assumptions of a social and scientific nature, not falling within the category of faith and morals. You have simply rejected that, but you have not supported it whatsoever.
[/quote]
By the way, the document you referenced says:

"When political activity comes up against moral principles that do not admit of exception, compromise or derogation, the Catholic commitment becomes more evident and laden with responsibility. In the face of fundamental and inalienable ethical demands, Christians must recognize that what is at stake is the essence of the moral law, which concerns the integral good of the human person. This is the case with laws concerning abortion and euthanasia (not to be confused with the decision to forgo extraordinary treatments, which is morally legitimate). Such laws must defend the basic right to life from conception to natural death. In the same way, it is necessary to recall the duty to respect and protect the rights of the human embryo. Analogously, the family needs to be safeguarded and promoted, based on monogamous marriage between a man and a woman, and protected in its unity and stability in the face of modern laws on divorce: in no way can other forms of cohabitation be placed on the same level as marriage, nor can they receive legal recognition as such. The same is true for the freedom of parents regarding the education of their children; it is an inalienable right recognized also by the Universal Declaration on Human Rights. In the same way, one must consider society’s protection of minors and freedom from modern forms of slavery (drug abuse and prostitution, for example)."

That does not sound like an approval of drug use or decriminalization to me. Nevertheless, I am willing to examine any magisterial document you may find that supports your position.

[Guest]

And how is alcohol not a recreational drug ?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1352326509' post='2506059']
hi apotheoun...show me where it specifically applies to marijauna...also what if I live somme where its been legal...does this still apply ?
[/quote]
Delivery Boy, the magisterial document I referenced earlier says that "cannabis use is incompatible with Christian morality." You may disagree, but that is what the Catholic Church teaches.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1352326784' post='2506062']
And how is alcohol not a recreational drug ?
[/quote]
If you go back a page or so, you can see the post I made explaining the Church's position on the differences between alcohol and drugs. After reading what I posted it is possible that you may not agree with what the Church teaches on the matter, but that is between you, God, and the Church. Rest assured that I will be praying for you.

Edited November 7, 2012 by Apotheoun

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1352326444' post='2506057']

As I said, I think many sources support the concept that a legitimate plurality of opinion is acceptable to faithful Catholics. In which case "condemnations" are necessarily going to be conditional of certain assumptions of a social and scientific nature, not falling within the category of faith and morals. You have simply rejected that, but you have not supported it whatsoever.
[/quote]LOL. That's why many Catholics feel they can support legal abortion as a trade off for free healthcare. There's always wiggle room.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1352327063' post='2506066']
LOL. That's why many Catholics feel they can support legal abortion as a trade off for free healthcare. There's always wiggle room.
[/quote]
Sad but true.

[Guest]

Apotheoun hope you been good brother...I will always take prayers...once I have a medical card it will be for "theraputic" reasons so I won't be breaking any church teachings...so it will be all good in the hood...

[Guest]

Comparing marijuana and abortion ? Really ? God calls marijuana GOOD...He does not call abortion GOOD....

Edited November 7, 2012 by Guest

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1352326784' post='2506062']
And how is alcohol not a recreational drug ?
[/quote]Alcohol was a byproduct of sanitizing and preserving liquids. They byproduct of a necessity can be abused. Society has incorporated moderation well, but abuse is still a problem.

And you're already stoned or smoking trash if you think smoking a bowl doesn't affect you.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Apotheoun' timestamp='1352327118' post='2506069']

Sad but true.
[/quote]Quite sad. How are things with you? I know you visit but I didn't think you posted anymore. What's up with new mode?