Apotheoun Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1352326088' post='2506049'] IMO this [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20021124_politica_en.html"]Doctrinal Note[/url], in speaking about a "legitmate plurality of temporal options" supports the idea that, when it comes to social issues like marijuana, certain variety of opinion is not unacceptable. I have seen opinions of some Church leaders and Vatican departments that marijuana use is sinful. That is fine. They make good arguments. But I think there is room for their positions to develop, as they are not [i]exclusively[/i] within the realm of faith and morals. [/quote] That is very nice, but also very irrelevant, because the Church has come out and explicitly condemned recreational drug use as gravely immoral, so it is not a debatable point. Moreover, the Church has also told Catholics in general, and Catholic politicians in particular, that they are to resist any and all attempts to decriminalize drugs. Now, if you have a magisterial source that approves of decriminalization or of recreational drug use, by all means post it. Edited November 7, 2012 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 [quote name='Apotheoun' timestamp='1352326281' post='2506055'] That is very nice, but also very irrelevant, because the Church has come out and explicitly condemned recreational drug use as gravely immoral, so it is not a debatable point. Moreover, the Church has also told Catholics in general, and Catholic politicians in particular, that they are resist any and all attempts to decriminalize drugs. Now, if you have a magisterial source that approves of decriminalization or of recreational drug use, by all means post it. [/quote] As I said, I think many sources support the concept that a legitimate plurality of opinion is acceptable to faithful Catholics. In which case "condemnations" are necessarily going to be conditional of certain assumptions of a social and scientific nature, not falling within the category of faith and morals. You have simply rejected that, but you have not supported it whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1352322450' post='2505973'] Well first off it is well established that marijuana is not new. [/quote]Stop right there. Marijuana use has not been as incorporated in almost all cultures for thousands of years like alcohol. You can't just dismiss that fact. What history does it have that approaches beer making, wine making, etc. Alcohol wasn't introduced to society a recreational intoxicant. The vast majority of pot use in America is specifically for recreational use. It's disingenuous to believe that won't be the primary use if legalized. Considering the known negatives of recreational intoxicants and potential other negatives, what is the counterbalancing NEED of society to accommodate the known and potential negatives and risks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' timestamp='1352326073' post='2506048'] Delivery Boy, you may do what you wish. I am just informing you of the fact that the Church has declared the use of marijuana to be gravely sinful. If you do not agree with the Church, that is your business. [/quote] hi apotheoun...show me where it specifically applies to marijauna...also what if I live somme where its been legal...does this still apply ? Edited November 7, 2012 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 [quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1352326468' post='2506058'] Stop right there. Marijuana use has not been as incorporated in almost all cultures for thousands of years like alcohol. You can't just dismiss that fact. What history does it have that approaches beer making, wine making, etc. Alcohol wasn't introduced to society a recreational intoxicant. The vast majority of pot use in America is specifically for recreational use. It's disingenuous to believe that won't be the primary use if legalized. Considering the known negatives of recreational intoxicants and potential other negatives, what is the counterbalancing NEED of society to accommodate the known and potential negatives and risks. [/quote] Number one, I was not limiting myself to America, and I do not know why anyone should. Number two, I quite specifically set aside that question in the rest of my response. So I do not really want to get sidetracked by such a minor point. Number three, in several cultures it does have a very long tradition of therapeutic use. Number four, see number two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1352326444' post='2506057'] As I said, I think many sources support the concept that a legitimate plurality of opinion is acceptable to faithful Catholics. In which case "condemnations" are necessarily going to be conditional of certain assumptions of a social and scientific nature, not falling within the category of faith and morals. You have simply rejected that, but you have not supported it whatsoever. [/quote] By the way, the document you referenced says: "When political activity comes up against moral principles that do not admit of exception, compromise or derogation, the Catholic commitment becomes more evident and laden with responsibility. In the face of fundamental and inalienable ethical demands, Christians must recognize that what is at stake is the essence of the moral law, which concerns the integral good of the human person. This is the case with laws concerning abortion and euthanasia (not to be confused with the decision to forgo extraordinary treatments, which is morally legitimate). Such laws must defend the basic right to life from conception to natural death. In the same way, it is necessary to recall the duty to respect and protect the rights of the human embryo. Analogously, the family needs to be safeguarded and promoted, based on monogamous marriage between a man and a woman, and protected in its unity and stability in the face of modern laws on divorce: in no way can other forms of cohabitation be placed on the same level as marriage, nor can they receive legal recognition as such. The same is true for the freedom of parents regarding the education of their children; it is an inalienable right recognized also by the Universal Declaration on Human Rights. In the same way, one must consider society’s protection of minors and freedom from modern forms of slavery (drug abuse and prostitution, for example)." That does not sound like an approval of drug use or decriminalization to me. Nevertheless, I am willing to examine any magisterial document you may find that supports your position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 And how is alcohol not a recreational drug ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 [quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1352326509' post='2506059'] hi apotheoun...show me where it specifically applies to marijauna...also what if I live somme where its been legal...does this still apply ? [/quote] Delivery Boy, the magisterial document I referenced earlier says that "cannabis use is incompatible with Christian morality." You may disagree, but that is what the Catholic Church teaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1352326784' post='2506062'] And how is alcohol not a recreational drug ? [/quote] If you go back a page or so, you can see the post I made explaining the Church's position on the differences between alcohol and drugs. After reading what I posted it is possible that you may not agree with what the Church teaches on the matter, but that is between you, God, and the Church. Rest assured that I will be praying for you. Edited November 7, 2012 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1352326444' post='2506057'] As I said, I think many sources support the concept that a legitimate plurality of opinion is acceptable to faithful Catholics. In which case "condemnations" are necessarily going to be conditional of certain assumptions of a social and scientific nature, not falling within the category of faith and morals. You have simply rejected that, but you have not supported it whatsoever. [/quote]LOL. That's why many Catholics feel they can support legal abortion as a trade off for free healthcare. There's always wiggle room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 [quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1352327063' post='2506066'] LOL. That's why many Catholics feel they can support legal abortion as a trade off for free healthcare. There's always wiggle room. [/quote] Sad but true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Apotheoun hope you been good brother...I will always take prayers...once I have a medical card it will be for "theraputic" reasons so I won't be breaking any church teachings...so it will be all good in the hood... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 (edited) Comparing marijuana and abortion ? Really ? God calls marijuana GOOD...He does not call abortion GOOD.... Edited November 7, 2012 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 [quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1352326784' post='2506062'] And how is alcohol not a recreational drug ? [/quote]Alcohol was a byproduct of sanitizing and preserving liquids. They byproduct of a necessity can be abused. Society has incorporated moderation well, but abuse is still a problem. And you're already stoned or smoking trash if you think smoking a bowl doesn't affect you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 [quote name='Apotheoun' timestamp='1352327118' post='2506069'] Sad but true. [/quote]Quite sad. How are things with you? I know you visit but I didn't think you posted anymore. What's up with new mode? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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