Charleston Shooting Suspect (Derailed: Confederate Flag Debate)

[Anomaly]

Everybody should be allowed to display any flag they want in their property.  Rainbow, Confederate, ISIS, Vatican, Sweden, NAMBLA, or US.  

I don't think a Government building should fly anything other than the State and U.S. Flag.  Not a Rainbow, POW/MIA, or Confederate.  

The current hoopla about the Confederate flag is only making a stronger representative of racism than it recently was.   In the South, it has long been about identifying local heritage and culture which is why it didn't used to be a big deal the Dukes of Hazzard had it on the car called General Lee and they were the good guys. 

Stupid to make it a powerful weapon for new racists by Yankees telling ignorant southern hicks they're too dumb to know what they mean.  

[Papist]

Oddly enough the LGBT rainbow flag only has 6 colors while the Rainbow in the Bible had 7, since it was a reminder of the covenant God made with man.

LGBT said God got it wrong.

[Credo in Deum]

LGBT said God got it wrong.

Darn yankee yankees!

[dominicansoul]

I don't think a Government building should fly anything other than the State and U.S. Flag.  Not a Rainbow, POW/MIA, or Confederate.  

I agree with this.  I also find it interesting that mostly liberals are calling for the ban of the confederate flag displayed outside government buildings, yet they had no problems hoisting the gay pride rainbow flag in front of US government buildings throughout the world, and praised and worshipped obama when he had the White house lit up in the same gay pride flag... not everyone relishes in that flag (just as not everyone relishes the confederate flag... IN fact, some religious might take that rainbow flag to be anti-God and anti-religious liberty...)

 

hypocrisy, thy name is liberalism...

[Seven77]

 

hypocrisy, thy name is liberalism...

Hypocrite, thy name is (insert my baptismal name here).

[KnightofChrist]

Are you African American? If not it would seem rather audacious that you would attempt to tell an African American what is the biggest problem facing his/her community. It would be like if I were to walk onto a Native American reservation and proclaim "Don't you people know what your biggest problem is? Alcoholism!" I could expect their reaction to be "who are you and where do you get the right to speak on our behalf?"

I asked this before of someone else, but they did not answer it, if you have a problem with the way in which I warn against the number one killer of African Americans, a killer that dwarfs all other threats, then tell me the language I should use. It's really easy for you and others to whine and witch about the way I state things, but can you offer better ideas or can you only whine?

Edited July 9, 2015 by KnightofChrist

[Peace]

so....confederate flag = racist?

It seems to me that a significant number of people use and view the flag with racist intent.  Not to the same extent as the Swastika - but getting there.

I'm probably wrong about the few # of black Catholics. There's probably way more then I imagine. I just know they are very visible in other denominations and non denominations. But at the same time I know two extremely talented Catholic rappers who are black. Right now the Parish I go to is all Mexican. I'm the only white guy. Most of the Masses are in Spanish. 

There are a good number in the DC Metro Area (lucky for me) and New Orleans. Outside of those areas my impression is that you might have to go to Brazil or Africa to find another black Catholic!

I asked this before of someone else, but they did not answer it, if you have a problem with the way in which I warn against the number one killer of African Americans, a killer that dwarfs all other threats, then tell me the language I should use. It's really easy for you and others to whine and witch about the way I state things, but can you offer better ideas or can you only whine?

I could suggest specific language that would have been more appropriate. I do not care to take the time to do that (and I think you can come up with more appropriate language yourself).

A person that believes that the manner in which he states facts or arguments is not important has a bit to learn about human relations. He will not be as successful in his endeavors as he might otherwise have been.

[KnightofChrist]

It seems to me that a significant number of people use and view the flag with racist intent.  Not to the same extent as the Swastika - but getting there.

A majority do not however.

Poll: Majority sees Confederate flag as Southern pride symbol, not racist

Also another narrative that is false is that flying the flag reemerged during the 50's and 60's is false. It never really went away as a symbol of honor in the South, but it's popularity grew greater during WWII when Southerners in the military before, during and after battles would fly it as a symbol of honor and heritage. Just as others would fly the American flag.

====

Also I'd like to point out that the American flag if we are to be logically non-contradictory is also a symbol of racism. The red and white stripes come from the East India Company flag, and that company was greatly involved with the slave trade in what I believe is Madagascar. Francis Hopkinson, designer of the American Flag and the Great Seal of the United States was also believer in white supremacy, and he owned 130+ slaves.

"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races - that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything." - Abraham Lincoln

"The War is waged by the government of the United States not in the spirit of conquest or subjugation, nor for the purpose of overthrowing or interfering with the rights or institutions of the states, but to defend and protect the Union."

-Abraham Lincoln, in a resolution passed unanimously by Congress on July 23, 1861.

If a Confederate made these statements it would be used as proof that the Confederate flag is a symbol of racism. So why not see the American flag as a symbol of racism? And for those who believe words actually mean something and that meaning actually matters, unlike the SCOTUS, the resolution passed by Congress is evidence that the war was not fought to free the slaves, but rather to keep the Union together.

I could suggest specific language that would have been more appropriate. I do not care to take the time to do that (and I think you can come up with more appropriate language yourself).

A person that believes that the manner in which he states facts or arguments is not important has a bit to learn about human relations. He will not be as successful in his endeavors as he might otherwise have been.

I find the way I state things as appropriate base upon the grave matter that it involves.

Edited July 10, 2015 by KnightofChrist

[Peace]

A majority do not however.

Poll: Majority sees Confederate flag as Southern pride symbol, not racist

Also another narrative that is false is that flying the flag reemerged during the 50's and 60's is false. It never really went away as a symbol of honor in the South, but it's popularity grew greater during WWII when Southerners in the military before, during and after battles would fly it as a symbol of honor and heritage. Just as others would fly the American flag.

====

Also I'd like to point out that the American flag if we are to be logically non-contradictory is also a symbol of racism. The red and white stripes come from the East India Company flag, and that company was greatly involved with the slave trade in what Madagascar. Francis Hopkinson, designer of the American Flag and the Great Seal of the United States was also believer in white supremacy, and he owned 130+ slaves.

"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races - that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything." - Abraham Lincoln

"The War is waged by the government of the United States not in the spirit of conquest or subjugation, nor for the purpose of overthrowing or interfering with the rights or institutions of the states, but to defend and protect the Union."

-Abraham Lincoln, in a resolution passed unanimously by Congress on July 23, 1861.

If a Confederate made these statements it would be used as proof that the Confederate flag is a symbol of racism. So why not see the American flag as a symbol of racism? And for those who believe words actually mean something and that meaning actually matters, unlike the SCOTUS, the resolution passed by Congress is evidence that the war was not fought to free the slaves, but rather to keep the Union together.

I find the way I state things as appropriate base upon the grave matter that it involves.

Well. Any object can be a symbol of anything. Symbolism is not inherent in an object, but comes from the meaning that people attach to the object (perhaps one exception to this might be the innate symbolism that God has attached to certain objects such as water). How many people today fly the US Flag with the specific intent to convey racism or conquest? Perhaps not many. I don't think anyone would really try to make the argument that a significant number of people use the flag in that manner today. The Swastika, on the other hand, most people would agree that it is most often used with a racist intent. Where is the Confederate Flag? Somewhere in between those two. Perhaps a majority of people do not view it as a symbol of racism. I will take your word on that. Many people do use and view it as a symbol of racism. I am not saying that you have to take it down. Just realize how a significant number of people use and view it, and consider that when deciding whether or not it is something that you need or want to put on your porch. I think the state of SC today took those things under consideration and decided that it did not need it. But if you feel differently, and do not care that it offends large numbers of people, feel free to fly it. That is your choice.

In what sense do you believe that abortion is the largest problem facing African Americans? In a secular sense or a moral sense? In a purely secular sense I do not see why the number of black abortions is particularly harmful. The black birth rate is still higher than the white birth rate, from what I understand. If either group is under threat of dying out (or having their numbers significantly decreased) by lack of births I think it is is white Americans. That is why the demographic projections for 20 to 30 years from now show that there will be a minority-majority. Also, in a purely secular sense, when you commit abortion you typically killing a small number of cells in which no investment has been made. Murder, on the other hand, involves the removal from society of a productive individual, and an individual to whom society has contributed vast resources in raising. That is why in a secular sense - murder is a crime and abortion is almost completely legal. You can find plenty of other problems that are more damaging to African Americans than abortion in a purely secular sense.

That is not to say that abortions are not a huge problem to African Americans. It is a huge moral problem because it is sin that may have eternal consequences. But if you meant that abortion is the largest problem facing African Americans in a moral sense - I doubt that as well. Which is worse, breaking the 5th Commandment or the 1st Commandment? I am pretty sure that God had a reason for putting the 1st Commandment 1st.  And it seems to me that many more African Americans (as well all Americans) are in more danger of breaking the 1st than the 5th. We live in an extremely materialistic society and have made idols out of money, fame, pleasure, and power. It seems to me that there are many more African Americans breaking the 1st than the 5th (as an African American myself).

But we could have discussed that in a civil fashion were it not for the tone in which you write.

[Era Might]

The American flag only escapes as a symbol of what is wrong about America's past precisely because it is not about preserving a narrow regional pride and heritage. It represents all the states as well as the evolution of American heritage. It does NOT represent British colonial society in the 18th century or Northern industrialization in the 19th century or American capitalism in the 20th century. It represents an historical ideas (or ideals) that take shape on the American continent.

That being said, there is no logical reason why someone can't object to the American flag on any number of grounds...it's just a symbol like any other. But it is NOT an equivalent symbol with the Confederate flag. The two symbolize two very different things. The Confederate flag represents a narrow, regional past, the American flag represents a living ideal. The American flag is open to all...immigrants, blacks, whites, even foreigners. The Confederate flag is just a sign of regional, past-looking pride.

[Credo in Deum]

Also, in a purely secular sense, when you commit abortion you typically killing a small number of cells in which no investment has been made. Murder, on the other hand, involves the removal from society of a productive individual, and an individual to whom society has contributed vast resources in raising. That is why in a secular sense - murder is a crime and abortion is almost completely legal.

When you commit an abortion you're killing an innocent human being.  That is not an opinion, it is a fact.  The intentional killing of an innocent human being, regardless of how productive they are in society or how much society has invested into them, is murder.  Your concept of murder is not only disgusting, it's terrifying.

Furthermore abortion was made legal because people think they can debate something which is a biological fact; that life begins at conception.  This fact has been stated numerous times by the scientific community both past and present.  Yet even IF we did not know that life begins at conception, we still wouldn't , under the law, have the right to abort "something" which could be a someone (human).  If I'm driving down the road and I see something which might be a human and I hit it anyway and it winds up being a human, then I'm guilty of manslaughter.  If I don't see a human and hit a human then I'm guilty of criminal neglegence.  If I willingly hit a human knowing it is another human, then I'm guilty of murder.

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by Credo in Deum

[Peace]

When you commit an abortion you're killing an innocent human being.  That is not an opinion, it is a fact.  The intentional killing of an innocent human being, regardless of how productive they are in society or how much society has invested into them, is murder.  Your concept of murder is not only disgusting, it's terrifying.

Furthermore abortion was made legal because people think they can debate something which is a biological fact; that life begins at conception.  This fact has been stated numerous times by the scientific community both past and present.  Yet even IF we did not know that life begins at conception, we still wouldn't , under the law, have the right to abort "something" which could be a someone (human).  If I'm driving down the road and I see something which might be a human and I hit it anyway and it winds up being a human, then I'm guilty of manslaughter.  If I don't see a human and hit a human then I'm guilty of criminal neglegence.  If I willingly hit a human knowing it is another human, then I'm guilty of murder.

 

Well. It appears that someone is on his high horse today. And what is wrong with killing an innocent human being in a purely secular sense? Have we not seen mass exterminations of people in secular Russia and China, for example?

Look - I believe that abortion is morally abhorrent. I do not believe that it should be legal under any circumstance.

But how do we have that morality? It comes from God. If we did not define our morality as that which is commanded by God, then we would be the same as the animals. And there would be nothing inherently wrong with killing another person. When we watch the discovery channel and we see one lion kill another lion do we say that the lion has done something that is wrong? When we see a female prey mantis eat the male after mating do we have say that it has done something wrong? Why would it be any different for humans, if it were not against that which God has commanded?

What makes abortion abhorrent is that it directly contradicts what God has commanded. In a purely secular sense it involves nothing more than destroying a small number of cells (in most circumstances). Abortion does not destroy a soul.

Edited July 10, 2015 by Peace
Grammar

[Nihil Obstat]

What makes abortion abhorrent is that it directly contradicts what God has commanded. In a purely secular sense it involves nothing more than destroying a small number of cells (in most circumstances). Abortion does not destroy a soul.

Sure, but only in the sense that souls cannot be destroyed by any act. Abortion certainly unjustly separates a soul from its body, thereby depriving it of the life it was meant to have.

[Credo in Deum]

Well. It appears that someone is on his high horse today. And what is wrong with killing an innocent human being in a purely secular sense? Have we not seen mass exterminations of people in secular Russia and China, for example?

Look - I believe that abortion is morally abhorrent. I do not believe that it should be legal under any circumstance.

But how do we have that morality? It comes from God. If we did not define our morality as that which is commanded by God, then we would be the same as the animals. And there would be nothing inherently wrong with killing another person. When we watch the discovery channel and we see one lion kill another lion do we say that the lion has done something that is wrong? When we see a female prey mantis eat the male after mating do we have say that it has done something wrong? Why would it be any different than humans, if it were not against that which God has commanded?

What makes abortion abhorrent is that it directly contradicts what God has commanded. In a purely secular sense it involves nothing more than destroying a small number of cells (in most circumstances). Abortion does not destroy a soul.

How am I on my high horse? Human beings are not animals.  Morality does not apply toward animals because animals do not have a capacity for it (we call this an intellectual soul).  Humans on the other hand do have the capacity for morality and we therefore are bound to live by it.  This capacity helps us live by things such as justice and truth. Two things which murder is opposed to.  

It is by justice and truth that we know murder is a crime against the dignity mankind holds as being made in the image and likeness of God; but since you want a 'secular sense' reason, which I assume to you means atheistic?, then I will give the answer some atheists have told me as to why they oppose abortion, and that is that they view it as an immoral crime against humanity.  They view it this way because abortion/murder robs another human being of a future like ours.  A future to experience life in all of its fullness (both ups and downs, good and bad).  These atheist dont view these babies as clumps of cells.  They follow the scientific data that shows these are human beings with their own unique DNA which is given to them during conception. Were you unaware that there are atheists who are pro-life?

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by Credo in Deum

[Peace]

Sure, but only in the sense that souls cannot be destroyed by any act. Abortion certainly unjustly separates a soul from its body, thereby depriving it of the life it was meant to have.

Yeah. That is right. It is unjust (as murder of adults is also unjust). When you say "depriving it of the life it was meant to have" - I think you are talking in religious terms. God created the soul and the body. God deems the soul and body to be together. It is therefore wrong because you are interfering with God's plan for it. But if we are not considering God's plan for it - what is wrong with murder? What is wrong with abortion? Nothing - that is generally the point I was attempting to make (I think that if you look at the morality argument for the existence of God - you will see that most Christian apologists seem to make that point in their arguments as well).