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CuriositasEtFidem

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18 hours ago, Lilllabettt said:

Lol, no.

In some cultures women's breasts are not sexually charged objects. They fill the biological purpose of feeding offspring and that's their cultural meaning. Revealing ones breasts in public has no sexual significance; men having sexual interest in breasts are considered infantile childish and like they have a nanny kink or something.  Basically the opposite of masculinity.

That's news to me. I have met straight men from every corner of the earth. I have yet to meet one that does not like a woman's breasts. Sure, some of us are much more so "A" men that "T" men but that is not to say that the interest in one versus the other is exclusive.

But that is only my anecdotal experience. What cultures are those that you mention, specifically? I would like to get a bit more information on them and their specific habits? In these non T loving societies, what do the men go for physically? The big toe? The ear? Inquiring minds want to know.

Sure, much of what we consider "masculine" and "feminine" are social constructs that have no true biological basis. But that's not to say that there is no biological basis in what men and women find attractive in the opposite gender, whatsoever. It's almost universal, for example, that women find taller men more attractive.

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14 hours ago, Lilllabettt said:

I have a graduate degree in developmental psychology

That explains an awful lot.  No offense...

The academic world was one of the first that was attacked by satan.  I think I'll leave it at that - I could discuss that at more length, but it would almost certainly be taken by you as uncharitable.

14 hours ago, Lilllabettt said:

everything I have read says that men, fathers in particular, are also absolutely indispensable to the proper development of  children. He cannot be replaced.

Absolutely - the mothers are indispensable for the earliest few years, and then the fathers are indispensable for the later years.  Both are needed.  I've listened to talks by a number of people on this topic, from psychologists to exorcist priests, and they all more or less agreed on both points.  (They were also all conservative)

11 hours ago, Anomaly said:

They don’t, and you know it.  Pick something else to try to make your point.   You’re just making yourself look like a doofus. 

At this point, that specific discussion has become more or less a joke.  Lighten up just a wee bit.

2 hours ago, CuriositasEtFidem said:

"What does make a human person, male or female, in the eyes of human society?" is EXACTLY the question I'd like answered!

And that's exactly the question that doesn't matter!

I think this might be the problem.  You're concerned with how society sees you.  You should be concerned with how God sees you.  In the eyes of God, a human person is a body and a soul.  A human person is incomplete without both, and both belong to the same gendered sex.  A biologically male person will never be female in spirit, and a biologically female person will never be male in spirit.  There are a number of physical, psychological, and spiritual disorders that make us think contrary to these simple truths, but in the end we know they are the truth.  

A 3-minute video for anyone interested:

 

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10 minutes ago, Peace said:

That's news to me. I have met straight men from every corner of the earth. I have yet to meet one that does not like a woman's breasts. Sure, some of us are much more so "A" men that "T" men but that is not to say that the interest in one versus the other is exclusive.

But that is only my anecdotal experience. What cultures are those that you mention, specifically? I would like to get a bit more information on them and their specific habits? In these non T loving societies, what do the men go for physically? The big toe? The ear? Inquiring minds want to know.

Sure, much of what we consider "masculine" and "feminine" are social constructs that have no true biological basis. But that's not to say that there is no biological basis in what men and women find attractive in the opposite gender, whatsoever. It's almost universal, for example, that women find taller men more attractive.

@Lilllabettt doesn’t seem to be saying breasts aren’t liked, but as you point out, they aren’t always highly important to men. We all don’t want Dolly Parton for a wife.  
And as a shorter man married to a taller woman, I’ve repeatedly won out over taller guys.  
Again, lots of absolute statements being made about general tendencies.  
 

So what makes someone make or female?   It seems it is mostly a cultural construct.   Other than that, biologically only human males can impregnate human females.  
 

Dress people up and call them different pronouns, they’re still unique people trying to fit into societal roles.  Impregnators can be mechanics, cooks, artists, and nurturers.  Birthers can be mechanics, cooks, artists, and nurturers.
 

 If a person is sterile, does that make them non-gendered?

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34 minutes ago, Peace said:

But that is only my anecdotal experience. What cultures are those that you mention, specifically?

The characterization of  attraction to breasts as infantile comes from traditional Japanese culture. The Pirahã people, down in Brazil, think it's weird and ridiculous, like you probably would consider the Chinese interest in feet. There are a number of ethnic tribes in Mali that have the "that's disgusting " reaction to the involvement of breasts in foreplay.  

This is not unexpected. There is one culture I learned about, I cannot remember which, which finds kissing on the lips disgusting as part of a mating ritual.  

Although western culture is traveling Borg like thru the earth assimilating all. The world is still pretty wide.

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8 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

And as a shorter man married to a taller woman, I’ve repeatedly won out over taller guys.  

Sure, but you have won out because of your other qualities.

8 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

So what makes someone make or female?   It seems it is mostly a cultural construct.   Other than that, biologically only human males can impregnate human females.  

Dress people up and call them different pronouns, they’re still unique people trying to fit into societal roles.  Impregnators can be mechanics, cooks, artists, and nurturers.  Birthers can be mechanics, cooks, artists, and nurturers.

If a person is sterile, does that make them non-gendered?

These are interesting questions. I don't have an answer. I would say that you could attempt to base it on biology (having certain chromosomes, hormonal levels, things like the presence of a womb, testes, etc.) But naturally that can present a problem for certain rare cases where there are abnormalities and you don't have someone who falls squarely into either class.

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So really, for @CuriositasEtFidem, here at PM, it’s not that important generally, being an artist is more interesting.  
Theologically, it seems there’s not a clear answer, other than acknowledging your humanity and caution for your soul.   It’s mostly their personal issue, why does an “issue” even need to be known to most others?    If someone asks to be called “he” or “she”, I don’t check genitalia or chromosomes for verification first. 
 

@Peace, you got that right, as my spouse of 38 years reminded me yesterday (on the phone).  I am charming and personable AF.   

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6 minutes ago, Lilllabettt said:

The characterization of  attraction to breasts as infantile comes from traditional Japanese culture. The Pirahã people, down in Brazil, think it's weird and ridiculous, like you probably would consider the Chinese interest in feet. There are a number of ethnic tribes in Mali that have the "that's disgusting " reaction to the involvement of breasts in foreplay.  

This is not unexpected. There is one culture I learned about, I cannot remember which, which finds kissing on the lips disgusting as part of a mating ritual.  

Although western culture is traveling Borg like thru the earth assimilating all. The world is still pretty wide.

That's interesting. Thanks. I lived in Japan for 5 years. I can tell you for sure that the guys there appreciate a nice pair of breasts like the rest of us. They got some of the freakiest AV on the planet (not that I watch it mind you).

As for the traditional Japanese culture, I wonder what that was all about? I mean, they used to make married women paint their teeth black, as unnatural as that is. I wonder, if in the past if they had some sort of "anti-breast" campaign going on, if that was not in fact a form of cultural repression going against biological inclinations, rather than a tradition that developed from innate biological inclinations? Just because we have a tradition does not mean that it is consistent with biological imperatives.

As for the Pirahã I dunno how much we can really make of a tribe of 800 people. Wikipedia states that "They trade Brazil nuts and sex for consumables or tools, e.g. machetes, gunpowder, powdered milk, sugar, whiskey." I mean if you are trading sex for a cup of Brazil nuts I dunno what we can really generalize from that.

I've been to Africa too. My step-father is Nigerian, those guys are fans of women's breasts. Some remote 50 person tribe in a village in Mali? OK. THey don't like breasts. I'll grant you that. But I have trouble saying that all of this rampant breast liking by men around the world is merely the result of western standards being imposed on other cultures.

But I'll grant you that there are some folks here and there that may not like them. But can we be honest here and just admit that these are extreme outliers from the norm?

4 minutes ago, CuriositasEtFidem said:

351d865c102f83cd20424697a1ad8df0a73e9f4c

Since when did this thread turn into one discussing breast size? Lol, let's try to get back on topic

Hijacked my friend. Hijacked. Welcome to Phatmass.

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CuriositasEtFidem
7 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

So really, for @CuriositasEtFidem, here at PM, it’s not that important generally, being an artist is more interesting.  
Theologically, it seems there’s not a clear answer, other than acknowledging your humanity and caution for your soul.   It’s mostly their personal issue

No, it is important to me, I just happened to be in the mood to draw. It's also better at expressing tone and metaphor imo.

Tbh, I started this thread on a whim, and I agree, it really is a personal issue. I've come to the conclusion that being trans is alright. 

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21 minutes ago, CuriositasEtFidem said:

No, it is important to me, I just happened to be in the mood to draw. It's also better at expressing tone and metaphor imo.

Tbh, I started this thread on a whim, and I agree, it really is a personal issue. I've come to the conclusion that being trans is alright. 

I imagine it’s (being transgender) VERY SIGNIFICANTLY IMPORTANT to you personally.   Not as important to us at  PM.   There’s enough erroneous gender misidentifications floating around here.  
I hope you get treated respectfully here.  You seem like an interesting person and the artwork is impressive.   I hope you stay and opine on other subjects as well.  

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1 hour ago, Anomaly said:

Again, lots of absolute statements being made about general tendencies.

I think there are lots of general statements being made about general tendencies, which is perfectly fine.

Cholerics, of course, will see general statements as absolute statements.  (That doesn't mean ALL cholerics will, or that ONLY cholerics will, just that it's more-or-less built into that temperament)

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12 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

I imagine it’s (being transgender) VERY SIGNIFICANTLY IMPORTANT to you personally.   Not as important to us at  PM.   There’s enough erroneous gender misidentifications floating around here.  
I hope you get treated respectfully here.  You seem like an interesting person and the artwork is impressive.   I hope you stay and opine on other subjects as well.  

It is indeed very important to me. That's one of the reasons I brought it up in the first place. Thank you for the compliment, and I do plan on hanging around here

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41 minutes ago, Peace said:

That's interesting. Thanks. I lived in Japan for 5 years. I can tell you for sure that the guys there appreciate a nice pair of breasts like the rest of us. They got some of the freakiest AV on the planet (not that I watch it mind you).

As for the traditional Japanese culture, I wonder what that was all about? I mean, they used to make married women paint their teeth black, as unnatural as that is. I wonder, if in the past if they had some sort of "anti-breast" campaign going on, if that was not in fact a form of cultural repression going against biological inclinations, rather than a tradition that developed from innate biological inclinations? Just because we have a tradition does not mean that it is consistent with biological imperatives.

As for the Pirahã I dunno how much we can really make of a tribe of 800 people. Wikipedia states that "They trade Brazil nuts and sex for consumables or tools, e.g. machetes, gunpowder, powdered milk, sugar, whiskey." I mean if you are trading sex for a cup of Brazil nuts I dunno what we can really generalize from that.

I've been to Africa too. My step-father is Nigerian, those guys are fans of women's breasts. Some remote 50 person tribe in a village in Mali? OK. THey don't like breasts. I'll grant you that. But I have trouble saying that all of this rampant breast liking by men around the world is merely the result of western standards being imposed on other cultures.

But I'll grant you that there are some folks here and there that may not like them. But can we be honest here and just admit that these are extreme outliers from the norm?

Hijacked my friend. Hijacked. Welcome to Phatmass.

Mmm you wouldn't make a very good anthropologist. Although we can say some things ( a culture of child sacrifice is bad) in general it's unwise to call other cultural traditions, especially sexual turn ons/offs, unnatural.  Too much risk of pot calling kettle. iykwim.

I'm reminded of that time Neil de Grasse Tyson claimed sex is not painful and if it were species would die out - him not knowing how females, especially female cats might say about this. 

The fact that the majority of cultures does "x" doesn't mean much; this isn't a very good "clue". There was a time when the vast majority of cultures considered females not to have souls- or rather that cultures equivalent of a soul. Overall this is still the case, globally, in some form (the concept of women as less than fully human.) There's no biological truth to this, obviously.  

Tldr/ people can be turned on by the way one makes a turkey sandwich. They can even be turned on by the turkey sandwich itself.  Turkey sandwiches are not themselves inherently erotic though. 

I'm not sure how I got on this topic but I'm done hijacking. Whoever wants to respond to this part can have the last word. 

54 minutes ago, CuriositasEtFidem said:

 

A problem with comparing your sitch to grapes and wine is, no one that enjoys and appreciates wine is disgusted by grapes. The reverse is true.  They revere grapes. They love them. In the Mass we thank God for the fruit of the vine.

You on the otherhand, strongly dislike your breasts to the point of wanting to destroy them. It's kind of like, wanting to go into religious life because you're disgusted by marriage.  It won't work. 

Some females get massive boob jobs which effectively destroys the function of that healthy tissue, so that they can more effectively play their preferred gender role.  My general attitude is judge not. But, I think most people find this sad.  That they reject the normal healthy way they were made to the point they have to destroy that part of themselves.  

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1 hour ago, Lilllabettt said:

Mmm you wouldn't make a very good anthropologist. Although we can say some things ( a culture of child sacrifice is bad) in general it's unwise to call other cultural traditions, especially sexual turn ons/offs, unnatural.  Too much risk of pot calling kettle. iykwim.

First, I would make the world's greatest anthropologist. I simply choose not to because I have better things to do, such as refute you here on Phatmass.

Second, men liking women's breasts is a not a "cultural tradition". It is a nearly universal characteristic of all men who live, and who have ever lived, on the planet Earth, across all countries and cultures. If men move to Mars, they will still like women's breasts. If they build an undersea society and a culture centered around worshiping the fish god, they will still like women's breasts.

The fact that you found one or two 50 person tribes in a remote village in South America who don't like breasts and like to trade sex for Brazil nuts and machetes does not dispel the overwhelming evidence that men like breasts.

What are you going to argue next? That physical attraction towards women is not a biological feature of men, because some small percentage of men are gay or asexual? That women do not like tall, muscular, men? This cannot be taken seriously.

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1 hour ago, Peace said:

That women do not like tall, muscular, men? This cannot be taken seriously.

you had me until that.. I am neither tall nor muscular and my wife likes me!!!

 

well..she more tolerates me..BUT YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN!!

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