puellapaschalis Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 Have you (JustJ, I guess) heard of the miracles granted by intercession of St. Gianna? There's a link [url="http://wdtprs.com/blog/2008/04/prepare-to-be-amazed-the-2nd-miracle-of-st-gianna-molla/"]here[/url]. It's medically verifiable and happened since the beginning of the scientific age, and thus there should be (somewhere! I wonder if these things are open to the public) something akin to a scientific paper about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 [quote name='JustJ' post='1578305' date='Jun 21 2008, 12:11 AM']I do not recall hearing about this one, and so I could do no better at explaining it than could someone of more authority. As such, I shall refer you to Wikipedia. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Miracle_of_the_Sun#Critical_evaluati_of_the_event"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Miracle_o...on_of_the_event[/url] The existence of the phenomena known as [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_dog"]parhelia (sun dogs)[/url] does make a pretty convincing explanation, from what I read.[/quote] Also, the meteorological conditions at the time of the Miracle of the Sun were not conducive to the sundog theory. It rained, then dried out. Sundogs occur in a cirrus type of cloud, made out of ice, not out of water droplets. This might have been acceptable prior to the rainstorm, but not trailing a rainstorm. It also would have to have been hours prior (cirrus clouds can precede a rainstorm by a few hours, which is even a stretch at times, but not immediately before). The type of rain described would indicate a cumulonimbus, since it was short, brief, and then clear. The ground was dry and people were dry, like it hadn't rained for days, after the Miracle of the Sun, too... there was no explanation for that either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustJ Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 [quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1578441' date='Jun 21 2008, 03:47 AM']Have you (JustJ, I guess) heard of the miracles granted by intercession of St. Gianna? There's a link [url="http://wdtprs.com/blog/2008/04/prepare-to-be-amazed-the-2nd-miracle-of-st-gianna-molla/"]here[/url]. It's medically verifiable and happened since the beginning of the scientific age, and thus there should be (somewhere! I wonder if these things are open to the public) something akin to a scientific paper about it.[/quote] It is a miracle in the sense that something very unlikely happened, though divine intervention cannot be proved. See the last paragraph of this post. [quote name='lilac_angel' post='1578543' date='Jun 21 2008, 10:51 AM']Also, the meteorological conditions at the time of the Miracle of the Sun were not conducive to the sundog theory. It rained, then dried out. Sundogs occur in a cirrus type of cloud, made out of ice, not out of water droplets. This might have been acceptable prior to the rainstorm, but not trailing a rainstorm. It also would have to have been hours prior (cirrus clouds can precede a rainstorm by a few hours, which is even a stretch at times, but not immediately before). The type of rain described would indicate a cumulonimbus, since it was short, brief, and then clear. The ground was dry and people were dry, like it hadn't rained for days, after the Miracle of the Sun, too... there was no explanation for that either.[/quote] There are many fantastic claims about these miracles that I am unable to explain. I wouldn't say that I know absolutely everything, and therefore my inability to answer it doesn't mean it's true. However, if you really wanted to convince me, it would not happen because of any historical miracles. Short of miracles in modern times, especially ones that are either repeatable, or [i]very[/i] direct (god coming out of the sky and literally telling us in no uncertain terms who he is), miracles are not the best way to go. The fact that there is no trace of god in our daily lives that cannot be attributed to how things naturally work without the need to invoke a god speaks much more strongly to his nonexistence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rckllnknny Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 [quote name='Alycin' post='1576105' date='Jun 19 2008, 12:37 PM']Not to mention our frames are completely different... lol...[/quote] lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 [quote name='JustJ' post='1578748' date='Jun 21 2008, 12:28 PM']However, if you really wanted to convince me, it would not happen because of any historical miracles. Short of miracles in modern times, especially ones that are either repeatable, or [i]very[/i] direct (god coming out of the sky and literally telling us in no uncertain terms who he is), miracles are not the best way to go. The fact that there is no trace of god in our daily lives that cannot be attributed to how things naturally work without the need to invoke a god speaks much more strongly to his nonexistence.[/quote] Maybe we could have a repeat of that whole thing with Saul becoming Paul. JustJ, have you been persecuting Christians? Or did you happen to go blind yesterday evening? Lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustJ Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1578776' date='Jun 21 2008, 01:53 PM'] Maybe we could have a repeat of that whole thing with Saul becoming Paul. JustJ, have you been persecuting Christians? Or did you happen to go blind yesterday evening? Lol.[/quote] Oh, clearly both. What happened yesterday evening? <__< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 [quote name='JustJ' post='1578781' date='Jun 21 2008, 12:56 PM']Oh, clearly both. What happened yesterday evening? <__<[/quote] Ah, yesterday evening just seemed like a likely time. I suppose it could really be anytime. Especially when you're travelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 (edited) [quote name='JustJ' post='1578748' date='Jun 21 2008, 12:28 PM']It is a miracle in the sense that something very unlikely happened, though divine intervention cannot be proved. See the last paragraph of this post. There are many fantastic claims about these miracles that I am unable to explain. I wouldn't say that I know absolutely everything, and therefore my inability to answer it doesn't mean it's true. However, if you really wanted to convince me, it would not happen because of any historical miracles. Short of miracles in modern times, especially ones that are either repeatable, or [i]very[/i] direct (god coming out of the sky and literally telling us in no uncertain terms who he is), miracles are not the best way to go. The fact that there is no trace of god in our daily lives that cannot be attributed to how things naturally work without the need to invoke a god speaks much more strongly to his nonexistence.[/quote] The 20th century is still considered "modern times." There were modern, anti-religious newspapers to write about it and be skeptical about it themselves, if they so chose. Some of the incorruptibles have been said to repeatedly have oil or blood flow from them; some even moved... I need to read up on that more, though, to see if there are ones recent enough for you specifically to consider credible... Many lives have been drastically changed and people healed through simple trust in God. The more they trusted, the more they saw. Sometimes it was a gradual process, but of course, that's what faith and perseverence are all about. When we give up on those, God doesn't force Himself on us. In the Psalms it has been written that God makes himself known to us the more we praise Him and follow His commands. To say that there is no trace of him in daily life is simply refusing to attribute things that happen to Him (or to opposing forces) and ignoring how He can help us when we depend solely and completely on Him. It's a belief, but it doesn't somehow prove a better case for the Biblical God's nonexistance. Edited June 21, 2008 by lilac_angel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puellapaschalis Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 I think I would agree that miracles alone aren't going to spark a lasting interest in an atheist; I've learnt that they're primarily to reward faith than to engender it. JustJ's remark about wanting a miracle to be [i]repeatable[/i] brought this home to me; it reminded me of what people say when you want to report a bug in a program like firefox - can you recreate the crash? I think believers would dismiss this with "God isn't an internet brower" (or somesuch); but to an atheist I suppose that's simply supposing things about God which they don't see as justified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 (edited) [quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1578859' date='Jun 21 2008, 03:05 PM']I think I would agree that miracles alone aren't going to spark a lasting interest in an atheist; I've learnt that they're primarily to reward faith than to engender it. JustJ's remark about wanting a miracle to be [i]repeatable[/i] brought this home to me; it reminded me of what people say when you want to report a bug in a program like firefox - can you recreate the crash? I think believers would dismiss this with "God isn't an internet brower" (or somesuch); but to an atheist I suppose that's simply supposing things about God which they don't see as justified.[/quote] Heh, good point. Not that there haven't been any repeated miracles; I find that hard to believe. Unless a skeptic is present during a miracle or perhaps is close to a person who recently witnessed one, it's natural that miracles will have less immediate impact than on someone who already believes in some kind of god, though they still attest to the fact that science can't explain everything, so maybe science shouldn't be the only place we look for guidance as humans. The ongoing, present-day Medjugorje miracles are bringing converts to the Church today... Maybe he should visit Medjugorje? Despite its controversial nature, I think even if he discovers the supernatural world there, it's better than nothing. But yeah, it probably isn't his priority to disprove himself. Edited June 21, 2008 by lilac_angel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 [quote name='lilac_angel' post='1578868' date='Jun 21 2008, 03:17 PM']But yeah, it probably isn't his priority to disprove himself. [/quote] Well obviously we have to kidnap him and make him go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted June 22, 2008 Share Posted June 22, 2008 [quote name='JustJ' post='1578431' date='Jun 21 2008, 02:27 AM']Yes, I have read some from Nietzsche, though I find any philosophy book to generally be boring, unless it deals with religion in an interesting way. However, academically, I'm really just more of a math guy. However, I find the notion of a school of atheistic thought to be amusing. I've read a lot of books and articles by many atheists, but would not consider myself to follow particularly after any of them. Truly, I go with the concept of freethought, taking ideas from any source with a valid point. If you really had to know who my main influence in outlook has been among atheists, I would definitely have to side with (the infamous) Professor Richard Dawkins. His books The God Delusion and Unweaving the Rainbow are on the top of my recommended reading list for absolutely anyone who wants to know why atheists don't believe.[/quote] Ah. Then here's another question: Do you plan to read [i]Answering the New Atheism: Dismantling Dawkins' Case Against God[/i] by Scott Hahn and Benjamin Wiker? I saw that you mentioned on the other thread about how challenging your outlook is valuable. I just started it myself. It's a relatively short book so likely wouldn't take up a lot of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted June 22, 2008 Share Posted June 22, 2008 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1578914' date='Jun 21 2008, 05:10 PM']Well obviously we have to kidnap him and make him go. [/quote] But of course! ... well, unless he promises to read the book I suggested slowly and thoughtfully with an open mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustJ Posted June 22, 2008 Share Posted June 22, 2008 [quote name='lilac_angel' post='1579153' date='Jun 22 2008, 01:55 AM']Ah. Then here's another question: Do you plan to read [i]Answering the New Atheism: Dismantling Dawkins' Case Against God[/i] by Scott Hahn and Benjamin Wiker? I saw that you mentioned on the other thread about how challenging your outlook is valuable. I just started it myself. It's a relatively short book so likely wouldn't take up a lot of time.[/quote] Sure. Of course, just like when my creationist friends give me creationist books to read, if it's short enough, I might spend about a month reading it while writing my responses in parallel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 [quote name='JustJ' post='1579761' date='Jun 22 2008, 06:55 PM']Sure. Of course, just like when my creationist friends give me creationist books to read, if it's short enough, I might spend about a month reading it while writing my responses in parallel.[/quote] Yay!!! No kidnapping after allllll. And fair enough. It's pretty short! Only 151 pages. But not lacking in intelligent writing, that's for sure. =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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