Nihil Obstat Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 [quote name='lilac_angel' post='1578292' date='Jun 21 2008, 12:05 AM']I think you might be wrong, at least in part -- those examples may not all have been officially Church-recognized saints, but I heard that they were all discovered to have been Catholics, and to my knowledge, there is no record of people of other faiths or non-faiths being found incorrupt. All of the circumstances in which the incorruptibles were buried were different, and some of them were even quite antagonistic for preservational purposes. I know this from just a basic skim of the beginning of my Incorruptibles book.[/quote] I seem to think you're correct. Although... I may have read something about Islamic incorruptibles...? I'll leave that to you. You have the book! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1578284' date='Jun 21 2008, 12:02 AM']Ooh, good one. My mom and I were talking about this today. [/quote] Cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 [quote name='lilac_angel' post='1578298' date='Jun 21 2008, 12:08 AM']Cool [/quote] She loved that link about the Eucharistic miracle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustJ Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 [quote name='lilac_angel' post='1578279' date='Jun 21 2008, 01:00 AM']What about the Miracle of the Sun at Fatima, witnessed by 70,000 people, reported in previously disbelieving secular newspapers and also witnessed by people miles away from the actual appariton site? And I would find mass hysteria to be a lacking explanation there. And that's only one of many apparitions that have yet to be disproven; if anything, science hasn't been able to do that for any of the church approved apparitions, despite its attempts.[/quote] I do not recall hearing about this one, and so I could do no better at explaining it than could someone of more authority. As such, I shall refer you to Wikipedia. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Miracle_of_the_Sun#Critical_evaluatin_of_the_event"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Miracle_o...on_of_the_event[/url] The existence of the phenomena known as [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_dog"]parhelia (sun dogs)[/url] does make a pretty convincing explanation, from what I read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustJ Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 [quote name='lilac_angel' post='1578292' date='Jun 21 2008, 01:05 AM']I think you might be wrong, at least in part -- those examples may not all have been officially Church-recognized saints, but I heard that they were all discovered to have been Catholics, and to my knowledge, there is no record of people of other faiths or non-faiths being found incorrupt.[/quote] Less than 30 seconds: [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorrupt#Other_Religions"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorrupt#Other_Religions[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 [quote name='JustJ' post='1578305' date='Jun 21 2008, 12:11 AM']I do not recall hearing about this one, and so I could do no better at explaining it than could someone of more authority. As such, I shall refer you to Wikipedia. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Miracle_of_the_Sun#Critical_evaluati_of_the_event"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Miracle_o...on_of_the_event[/url] The existence of the phenomena known as [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_dog"]parhelia (sun dogs)[/url] does make a pretty convincing explanation, from what I read.[/quote] Isn't the general idea that the sun was literally moving around in the sky? I'm sure there's a noticeable difference between sun dogs and dancing suns. After all... this wasn't the Dark Ages, so this wouldn't be as susceptible to exaggeration. This one really seems to qualify as unexplained, although we can't know for sure, and we sure can't study it. Science seems a bit shaky on this one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustJ Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1578313' date='Jun 21 2008, 01:14 AM']Isn't the general idea that the sun was literally moving around in the sky? I'm sure there's a noticeable difference between sun dogs and dancing suns. After all... this wasn't the Dark Ages, so this wouldn't be as susceptible to exaggeration. This one really seems to qualify as unexplained, although we can't know for sure, and we sure can't study it. Science seems a bit shaky on this one! [/quote] *ahem* [quote]A sundog is, however, a stationary phenomenon, and would not explain the reported appearance of the "dancing sun". Nickell suggests an explanation for this and other similar phenomena may lie in temporary retinal distortion, caused by staring at the intense light and/or by the effect of darting the eyes to and fro so as to avoid completely fixed gazing (thus combining image, afterimage and movement).[/quote] As someone who greatly enjoys techno/trance nightclubs and psychedelic music campout parties, I can attest to the fact that the retinal distortion really can make the lights and colors dance when either staring at very bright lights or trying hard to avoid them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 [quote name='JustJ' post='1578322' date='Jun 21 2008, 12:18 AM']*ahem* As someone who greatly enjoys techno/trance nightclubs and psychedelic music campout parties, I can attest to the fact that the retinal distortion really can make the lights and colors dance when either staring at very bright lights or trying hard to avoid them.[/quote] Hm, well all right. I'll concede that it is a possiblity. I'm far from an expert on Marian apparitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustJ Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1578330' date='Jun 21 2008, 01:21 AM']Hm, well all right. I'll concede that it is a possiblity. I'm far from an expert on Marian apparitions.[/quote] Well, don't worry. I won't be moving off topic by asking you questions about things you don't know. That's your job in this thread, not mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 [quote name='JustJ' post='1578333' date='Jun 21 2008, 12:23 AM']Well, don't worry. I won't be moving off topic by asking you questions about things you don't know. That's your job in this thread, not mine. [/quote] Haha, I suppose that's one way of looking at it. Unfortunately I have no questions at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 (edited) [quote name='JustJ' post='1578322' date='Jun 21 2008, 12:18 AM']*ahem* As someone who greatly enjoys techno/trance nightclubs and psychedelic music campout parties, I can attest to the fact that the retinal distortion really can make the lights and colors dance when either staring at very bright lights or trying hard to avoid them.[/quote] The theoretical "sundog" appeared on the day that the visionaries said it would. 70,000 people showed up because Mary had promised that a miracle would occur that day. And then that happened. You don't find this curious? At the very least, those humble peasant children rightly predicted a very strange phenomenon out of the blue. "But it has been objected that McClure's account fails to explain similar reports of people miles away, who by their own testimony were not even thinking of the event at the time [and thus their eyes weren't staring at the sun or up at the sky, darting back and forth to support the sundog theory], or the sudden drying of people's sodden, rain-soaked clothes." There were miraculous healings at those places, some during that miracle, and places like Lourdes, too (a blind guy gaining his eyesight, no explanation, is one of probably thousands of miracles associated with Marian sites). Edited June 21, 2008 by lilac_angel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 [quote name='JustJ' post='1578309' date='Jun 21 2008, 12:13 AM']Less than 30 seconds: [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorrupt#Other_Religions"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorrupt#Other_Religions[/url][/quote] They were certainly the exceptions, though. The Church didn't say that it was [i]impossible[/i] for a non-Catholic to go to heaven, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1578302' date='Jun 21 2008, 12:11 AM']She loved that link about the Eucharistic miracle.[/quote] I always loved that too! There have been all kinds of them. I should look into them more. For all I know, they still occur today. Eucharistic miracles even seemed to happen to some Phatmassers... Not as extreme, perhaps, but quite interesting nonetheless, especially since they're happening to "real people." I can remember reading an old post from someone on here who was immediately physically healed after receiving the Eucharist from a painful ailment or injury. I also have a book on Eucharistic Miracles. Heh. Haven't read it yet, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustJ Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 [quote name='lilac_angel' post='1578361' date='Jun 21 2008, 01:37 AM']They were certainly the exceptions, though. The Church didn't say that it was [i]impossible[/i] for a non-Catholic to go to heaven, after all.[/quote] Good news. Just for good measure, if I have some change of heart before I die, I may be putting [url="http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/8415/18912184gd3.jpg"]this[/url] to good use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 [quote name='JustJ' post='1578389' date='Jun 21 2008, 12:54 AM']Good news. Just for good measure, if I have some change of heart before I die, I may be putting [url="http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/8415/18912184gd3.jpg"]this[/url] to good use. [/quote] Unfortunately, the page isn't loading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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