JustJ Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 [quote name='lilac_angel' post='1579768' date='Jun 22 2008, 08:07 PM']Yay!!! No kidnapping after allllll. And fair enough. It's pretty short! Only 151 pages. But not lacking in intelligent writing, that's for sure. =)[/quote] That makes my job so much easier. I'm used to books in this genre running at least 300 pages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 (edited) [quote name='JustJ' post='1579777' date='Jun 22 2008, 07:14 PM']That makes my job so much easier. I'm used to books in this genre running at least 300 pages.[/quote] I guess they didn't find dismantling The God Delusion all that difficult.. lol. No offense!! And I guess you can decide for yourself how well they do at it. You should see how short my Catholic book dismantling Mormonism is!! haha... it's like 60 pages. Edited June 23, 2008 by lilac_angel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustJ Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 [quote name='lilac_angel' post='1579780' date='Jun 22 2008, 08:19 PM']I guess they didn't find dismantling The God Delusion all that difficult.. lol. No offense!! And I guess you can decide for yourself how well they do at it. You should see how short my Catholic book dismantling Mormonism is!! haha... it's like 60 pages.[/quote] The best way to dismantle Mormonism is to be introduced to all of its craziest claims at once. Same with Scientology, or any other strange cult. [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zOC8gNesq4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zOC8gNesq4[/url] <-- a good video explaining the Muslim and Mormon bubbles of delusion. Of course, it also applies the same concept to Christianity, but let's just let you see it for yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Just out of curiosity, what is the very least it would take to convince you that there is indeed a God somewhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus te Amat Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 [quote name='JustJ' post='1578748' date='Jun 21 2008, 01:28 PM']However, if you really wanted to convince me, it would not happen because of any historical miracles. Short of miracles in modern times, especially ones that are either repeatable, or [i]very[/i] direct (god coming out of the sky and literally telling us in no uncertain terms who he is), miracles are not the best way to go. [b]The fact that there is no trace of god in our daily lives that cannot be attributed to how things naturally work without the need to invoke a god speaks much more strongly to his nonexistence.[/b][/quote] I see traces of God every day. I see His hand and His work in people and events. I have read His Word and heard His voice. Telling me that there is no trace of God in every day life is not a viable excuse for atheism because there are millions of people that will tell you how God acts in their lives. How their prayers have been answered and His comfort given. You will refute this statement to imagination only... but then again, my eyes are open to His work. How do you explain the Incorrupt body of St. Catherine of Bologna? She was a nun 500 years ago. When she died, she was not embalmed. Her body was buried without a coffin. Johann Joseph von Gorres, a famous German philosopher, wrote this of the Saint, [quote]When she died and the grave was dug, the sisters carried her body to be buried without a casket. As the body of the saint was lowered into the grave, and incredibly sweet fragrance emanated from it, filling the entire cemetery and regions beyond. After several days, when the sisters visited the tomb, the fragrance was still there. There were no trees, flowers or herbs on the grave or in the vicinity, and it was safely established that the scent came from the grave. So, eighteen days after the interment, miracles began to happen at the grave. Persons incurably sick were cured. The sisters suddenly felt guilty because they had buried the body without a casket and that as a result masses of earth might have fallen on her face. They thought the body should be exhumed and placed in a casket. The sisters went for advice to the confessor of the convent, who was quite surprised to learn that after eighteen days the body had not yet started to decay. And when the nuns told him f the fragrance still emanating from the grave, he gave his consent for the exhumation. The face was only slightly distorted because of the pressure of earth. The body had remained white and fragrant, without any sign of decay. The fragrance became even sweeter, pervading the church and immediate neighborhood.[/quote] The body was then examined by doctors and ecclesiastical authorities and placed in a crypt beneath an altar. It was exhumed again several months later, and her body remained in the same, incorrupt position. The sisters then placed her sitting upright in a small chapel. There she has remained for 500 years, with the only sign of aging found in the blackened color of her skin, caused by the burning of oil lamps, and a slight chapping in her face and hands. It is even reported that her eyes have opened and hands have moved, but I won't ask you to believe that. [img]http://saints.sqpn.com/saintc26.jpg[/img] And she has been examined by various doctors during this scientific age, and they have found no explanation either. No embalming, no strange affect from eating habits 500 years ago, no mutated DNA... The quote and information in this post was taken from [i]The Incorruptibles[/i] by John Carroll Cruz, courtesy of my bookshelf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus te Amat Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 There is a proverb... "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything." I'm wondering, my friend, what is it that you stand for? And would you call yourself a skeptic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycin Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 DtA, did you read this thread? He answered lots of questions, most of which covered all the things you asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galloglasses Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 No, she has a point with the incorruptable part. That is quite miraculous. (Especially Considering that most of those cases aren't airtight and do very little to prevent bacteria from getting in.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycin Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Galloglasses' post='1580109' date='Jun 23 2008, 10:06 AM']No, she has a point with the incorruptable part. That is quite miraculous. (Especially Considering that most of those cases aren't airtight and do very little to prevent bacteria from getting in.)[/quote] That topic has already been discussed in this thread. ETA: See[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s=&showtopic=80389&view=findpost&p=1578275"] this page.[/url] Edited June 23, 2008 by Alycin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus te Amat Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 (edited) Okay, I'll address his point, although it did nothing to prove my argument false. [quote]Forgive me if I'm wrong about this, but I do recall having heard examples of incorrupt bodies that weren't saints, not to mention the fact that there might actually be a lot more bodies with the potential for pulling off the same thing if they [b]were buried under the same circumstances[/b] and at some point exhumed to have a peek at them, though I must admit, this would be a bit rude, to say the least.[/quote] Her body was buried without a coffin. That usually leads to quicker decay, not an incorruptible body. There is also a saint that was buried in a coffin and exhumed when the area was flooded. The coffin was decayed, the body wasn't. These examples defy all logical explanation. I'm just curious as to what your logic has come up with. And please don't give me a "it just hasn't been discovered yet." 500 years of science have yielded no answer. The use of reason and logic proves it impossible, especially with the circumstances of burial. Like I said before, if you don't believe in something, you'll fall for anything. You haven't answered many questions regarding the miracles, other than saying "it hasn't been explained yet." I'm surprised that no one has brought up that the Miracle of Lanciano occurred during the CONSECRATION of the Mass. Wow. That's some crazy fluke. How did the random DNA mutation just happen to occur exactly when an unbelieving Priest said the words of consecration. That's a crazy coincidence. Was it just a lucky happening that lead to the conversion of that priest and thousands of other people? My friend, your "it hasn't been discovered yet" falls to pieces when you look at the circumstances surrounding the miracles. God doesn't make a miracle happen lightly. They all bring about the conversion of souls.... even if it is just one person. The sun phenomena at Fatima, which your sun dog theory does not explain, thank you lilac_angel?, brought about the conversion of 70,000 people right then, and thousands more since. The apparition of Mary foretold WWII before WWI was even over! It was written down and read by thousands of people YEARS before Hitler took over Germany. She said there would be a sign (sun dance), and the evidence (dry ground after days of rain) is not logically explained away. It just doesn't happen. There isn't a scientific explanation for it. You seem like a logical man, using your logic, what is the answer? Are you a skeptic? Because skepticism isn't even a viable option, which I'll go into if you so desire. You haven't answered most of the questions regarding miracles, other than saying "it hasn't been explained yet." A person of reason, which you seem to be, would then notice that logically, it has no explanation (when you look at the details). The "science hasn't explained it yet" seems to be the Atheist's way of saying "God did it." Except that the the latter actually makes sense. Edited June 23, 2008 by Deus_te_Amat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycin Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 DtA, you should note that this is not on the debate table, and you are speaking with a condescending tone to my friend that I invited here to answer questions that people had for an atheist. There is no need for your tone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus te Amat Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Oh, and could you please provide examples of the "incorrupt bodies that weren't saints, not to mention the fact that there might actually be a lot more bodies with the potential for pulling off the same thing if they were buried under the same circumstances" and how you heard of the second phenomena. Scientific proof, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus te Amat Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 (edited) Sorry Alycin, I didn't mean the condescending tone... Maybe we should move this to the debate table? because I'm in a kind of mood. I'll edit my tone, but the CAPS were done for emphasis. How's that? Edited June 23, 2008 by Deus_te_Amat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycin Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 He already DID link to examples of non-saint ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus te Amat Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 He did? I don't remember seeing it. Oops, I'll go back and look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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