Life Teen

[kujo]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1307543384' post='2251244']
I guess that is my point. The vision/mission of the youth ministry at a parish is required to come from its local Bishop. And it needs to be a clear, concrete vision/mission and not open to deviations.
[/quote]

Totally agreed.

The problem is that a lot of bishops don't articulate this vision in a clear or specific manner. It's all "we want to bring Christ to his children" but nothing concrete. That void is often filled with the ambitions, biases and ignorance (willful or otherwise) of others at the parish level, who deviate and create their own little islands of ministry. It's a leadership issue at the top, and a lack of accountability at the bottom.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1307533945' post='2251204']
Dancing of any sort does not belong inside Mass. Nothing belongs inside the Mass that takes the focus away from the Altar. NOTHING!!!!
[/quote]

You are correct.

"Among some peoples, song is instinctively linked with hand-clapping, rhythmic corporeal movements and even dance. Such are external forms of interior sentiment and are part of popular traditions, especially on occasions such as patronal feasts. Clearly, such should be genuine expressions of communal prayer and not merely theatrical spectacles. The fact of their prevalence in one area, however, should not be regarded as a reason for their promotion in other areas, especially where they would not be spontaneous." - [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20020513_vers-direttorio_en.html#INTRODUCTION"]Directory on Popular Piety and the Liturgy[/url], Introduction, Song and Music, #17

From Cardinal [url="http://www.adoremus.org/Dance.html"]Arinze[/url], who you mentioned, "There has never been a document from our Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments saying that dance is approved in the Mass."

The article at the bottom of the page (the page where I took the Cardinal's quote[s]s[/s]) is "The Religious Dance, an Expression of Spiritual Joy", which to quote the page "is called a 'qualified and authoritative sketch', considered by the Congregation 'an authoritative point of reference for every discussion on the matter', thus it is commended for study by diocesan liturgical commissions and offices of worship." One quote from the text: "The dance has never been made an integral part of the official worship of the Latin Church."

Edit to change "quotes" from plural to singular.

Edited June 8, 2011 by HisChildForever

[Lil Red]

[quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1307545213' post='2251252']
Nor did they have the pomp and ceremony the Church has today and even more so with the medieval Mass. The last supper was a Passover meal, a meal of joy and celebration, a meal of much drink and of true fellowship friend with friend. Most of the apostles didn't even go to Calvary.

I have no problem at all with those who like a solemn Mass, and no problem at all with those who like to use the medieval form, thats each person's own choice and there are enough Masses to allow each to do as they choose in most places. But no one has any right to tell me I shouldn't worship the way God inspires me to either.
[/quote]
So if the Church says something is inappropriate behavior at Mass, you're going to do what you want because you know better than the Church? Wow, I wish I was that smart that I could place my own opinions above that of Holy Mother Church.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1307545676' post='2251257']
You are correct.

"Among some peoples, song is instinctively linked with hand-clapping, rhythmic corporeal movements and even dance. Such are external forms of interior sentiment and are part of popular traditions, especially on occasions such as patronal feasts. Clearly, such should be genuine expressions of communal prayer and not merely theatrical spectacles. The fact of their prevalence in one area, however, should not be regarded as a reason for their promotion in other areas, especially where they would not be spontaneous." - [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20020513_vers-direttorio_en.html#INTRODUCTION"]Directory on Popular Piety and the Liturgy[/url], Introduction, Song and Music, #17

From Cardinal [url="http://www.adoremus.org/Dance.html"]Arinze[/url], who you mentioned, "There has never been a document from our Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments saying that dance is approved in the Mass."

The article at the bottom of the page (the page where I took the Cardinal's quote[s]s[/s]) is "The Religious Dance, an Expression of Spiritual Joy", which to quote the page "is called a 'qualified and authoritative sketch', considered by the Congregation 'an authoritative point of reference for every discussion on the matter', thus it is commended for study by diocesan liturgical commissions and offices of worship." One quote from the text: "The dance has never been made an integral part of the official worship of the Latin Church."

Edit to change "quotes" from plural to singular.
[/quote]

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1307546049' post='2251258']
So if the Church says something is inappropriate behavior at Mass, you're going to do what you want because you know better than the Church? Wow, I wish I was that smart that I could place my own opinions above that of Holy Mother Church.
[/quote]


Every quote that has been given is about planned, structured dance, notnatural, spontaneous joy.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1307546161' post='2251260']
Every quote that has been given is about planned, structured dance, notnatural, spontaneous joy.
[/quote]

[quote]But the Holy See has addressed the matter of dance, constantly stressing the proper distinction between permitting indigenous cultural traditions and introducing innovations into the celebration of the Liturgy.

First is the 1975 commentary on "religious dance" in an essay in Notitiae, the official publication of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. The essay appeared in Notitiae, 11 (1975) 202-205; and was published in English translation, "The Religious Dance - an Expression of Spiritual Joy", in The Canon Law Digest, Vol. VIII, pp.78-82.[/quote]

"The dance has never been made an integral part of the official worship of the Latin Church." - [url="http://www.adoremus.org/Dance.html"]The Religious Dance, an Expression of Spiritual Joy[/url]

What you are doing is "introducing innovations" into the liturgical celebration. Dance is not permitted. Whether you are with a group swaying in the middle aisle as a performance during the homily or in the pew swaying and hopping about on your own.

Edited June 8, 2011 by HisChildForever

[kujo]

[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1307546541' post='2251262']
"The dance has never been made an integral part of the official worship of the Latin Church." - [url="http://www.adoremus.org/Dance.html"]The Religious Dance, an Expression of Spiritual Joy[/url]

What you are doing is "introducing innovations" into the liturgical celebration. Dance is not permitted. Whether you are with a group swaying in the middle aisle as a performance during the homily or in the pew swaying and hopping about on your own.
[/quote]

I believe she's saying that there's a difference between the spontaneous movements that one person might make and a congregation-wide expectation that you're supposed to dance or hop or sway or clap. None of those things are "officially" in the mass, nor should they be; however, if I feel like I wanna wiggle my toosh for some reason, why is that wrong?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1307546161' post='2251260']
Every quote that has been given is about planned, structured dance, notnatural, spontaneous joy.
[/quote]

This is just grasping at straws. No dance at Mass, planned or on the spur of the moment, end of story.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1307546870' post='2251263']
I believe she's saying that there's a difference between the spontaneous movements that one person might make and a congregation-wide expectation that you're supposed to dance or hop or sway or clap. None of those things are "officially" in the mass, nor should they be; however, if I feel like I wanna wiggle my toosh for some reason, why is that wrong?
[/quote]

It's a distraction from the Lord God of Hosts. Plus nobody want's to see that... .

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1307546870' post='2251263']
I believe she's saying that there's a difference between the spontaneous movements that one person might make and a congregation-wide expectation that you're supposed to dance or hop or sway or clap. None of those things are "officially" in the mass, nor should they be; however, if I feel like I wanna wiggle my toosh for some reason, why is that wrong?
[/quote]

Perhaps she should clarify what she means by "spontaneous movements". It's one thing to sway to a note without thinking. I mean I've seen people in department stores who randomly start singing or humming to the music being played. But there's a certain point where you realize that you're dancing.

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1307546994' post='2251265']
This is just grasping at straws. No dance at Mass, planned or on the spur of the moment, end of story.
[/quote]


I will continue to dance as the Spirit moves me. I'll be dancing in Heaven one day too Dance may not be a set part of the Mass, but show me where it says that people must stand still and look miserable? Thats not in the rubrics either but what most people tend to do. I adore God, I am his and my sole aim is to live as he calls me to do. That involves joy and happiness, and I will continue to express that.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1307547234' post='2251268']
I will continue to dance as the Spirit moves me. I'll be dancing in Heaven one day too Dance may not be a set part of the Mass, but show me where it says that people must stand still and look miserable? Thats not in the rubrics either but what most people tend to do. I adore God, I am his and my sole aim is to live as he calls me to do. That involves joy and happiness, and I will continue to express that.
[/quote]

Can you explain for us "how" you dance, and at what point during the Mass? Because I'm curious to hear this.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1307547234' post='2251268']
I will continue to dance as the Spirit moves me. I'll be dancing in Heaven one day too Dance may not be a set part of the Mass, but show me where it says that people must stand still and look miserable? Thats not in the rubrics either but what most people tend to do. I adore God, I am his and my sole aim is to live as he calls me to do. That involves joy and happiness, and I will continue to express that.
[/quote]

What's the point and focus of the Mass? Jesus Christ. Not ourselves, now in your dance you may well be focused on Christ but can you see how you would distract someone else? Take their eyes and focus away from Christ and instead give that focus to you? That is quite possible and quite likely. If you start dancing at Mass it will make a scene and somebody will be distracted, unnecessarily. Which is more important your wishes or your neighbors focus on the Lord Jesus Christ?

Dancing is not a form of expression for the Christian liturgy. There is no escape it's wrong and does not belong. Plain and dang simple.

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1307547290' post='2251269']
Can you explain for us "how" you dance, and at what point during the Mass? Because I'm curious to hear this.
[/quote]

In detail, no - not through awkwardness but simply because there is no concious thought in the process. It tends to be my body moving as the love in me wells up and needs to be expressed. Im not talking mad waving of my arms, or leaping up and down, or even coming out of my place, just movement- my knees, my hips, my shoulders maybe but all starting at my heart. Again, I cant so clearly say when as when not - i have never danced during the consecration for example - I am down on my knees then, ideally on the floor if the church layout allows it but sometimes on the kneeler. I don't think I have ever danced on the way to communion either, though there have been times when my joy at recieving my God has made me want to grab the eucharist from the priest and woof it down as fast as I can!!! (I stress, want, not have done!). There have been many times I have practically skipped back to my place after, but probably not in a way anyone would notice, more just me knowing that there is joy within my whole being and my whole being needing to celebrate the fact that the physical Christ is now in me. There have also been times I have howled with agony at the same point, when my calling to give myself completely to God has been so agonisingly painful that it has taken my whole physical and mental effort to get there and virtually crawl to communion.

I usually want to dance at the offeretry, knowing that the bread and wine and in some cases cash being offered are token gestures of my desire and my will that are all being offered as well. On the rare occasions I have taken up the gifts myself recently, I have usually cried as it is such an honour to be the one to bear those gifts to the priest who will then offer them to God on our behalf and be the human means of Christ coming to me.

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1307547779' post='2251270']
If you start dancing at Mass it will make a scene and somebody will be distracted[/quote]

That depends very much on the Mass in question. As my dance is inspired by God, he would not inspire me to do so in a Mass where other members of the congregation do not have the control or will to focus on Christ. It is certainly far less of a distraction than the children or the old ladies rattling their rosaries, and I just ignore these and focus on God.