picchick Posted January 12, 2009 Posted January 12, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1749426' date='Jan 12 2009, 09:54 AM']More than that, there really shouldn't be a hard and fast rule within the common sense limits of... well no details needed here. Some people should avoid far more than others, just because by the nature of their crosses, they're more likely to fall into sin.[/quote] Ok...now we are going in circles because how ever many pages back someone already said this. What some people cannot do should not be forced on someone else. I'll find it....and post it....repost it...
picchick Posted January 12, 2009 Posted January 12, 2009 [quote name='Paladin D' post='1499083' date='Apr 14 2008, 10:26 AM']Debating over the timing of hugs and kisses, is not only legalistic, but rather borderline paranoia. It all depends on context, who you're hugging/kissing, what your intension is, and what type of hug/kiss it is. I'm not for gropping or making out, but why is it such a 'grave evil' (as some of you make it out to be) when two individuals give each other a simple kiss on cheek or lip-to-lip kiss? If you [b]want[/b] to save your kissing until marriage, then more power to you; however, there are those (like myself) who have a different view on the subject. Does this mean I'm degrading the importance or significance of kissing? I don't think so, because I don't generalize the intent or meaning of every kiss into one category. I see no problem with two people who are dating, or especially engaged, kissing each other. I will kiss my girlfriend or fiancee, as 'a' (not the only) sign of affection for her. The kiss I will ultimately give to my future wife within the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony will be of upmost significance and importance compared to any kiss I have ever given in the past; so essentially, I never 'gave my kiss away'. Though when it comes to sexual relations, it's a nother subject matter. Sex must wait until marriage, because that is truely reserved only for your significant other. So please do some of us a favor, keep your preference as that, a preference, not a moral blueprint for everyone to follow (unless it was mandated by the Church as Divine Teaching, but last I checked, kissing in the basic form is not sinful; however, other acts that can lead to sexual immortality are indeed sinful). I apologize if I may have offended anyone's feelings, which was not my intention, I'm simply speaking my mind.[/quote] This was posted by PalD on page 4. Make rules for yourself if you so wish but there should not be a forced rule for everything. Everyone is different. Everyone is able to handle more or less depending on their weakness.
Nihil Obstat Posted January 12, 2009 Posted January 12, 2009 [quote name='picchick' post='1749495' date='Jan 12 2009, 10:46 AM']Ok...now we are going in circles because how ever many pages back someone already said this. What some people cannot do should not be forced on someone else. I'll find it....and post it....repost it...[/quote] Sorry. Is there anything left that we haven't said yet? This is a gigantic thread.
picchick Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1749725' date='Jan 12 2009, 06:29 PM']Sorry. Is there anything left that we haven't said yet? This is a gigantic thread.[/quote] Oh man, I did not mean to make anyone feel like they need to apologize. This is a huge thread I agree. I am not frustrated with you or slappo about repeating it. I was more showing that this was already said...that there are people out there who are agreeing...I guess. Sorry.
Slappo Posted January 17, 2009 Author Posted January 17, 2009 [quote name='picchick' post='1751169' date='Jan 14 2009, 11:20 AM']Oh man, I did not mean to make anyone feel like they need to apologize. This is a huge thread I agree. I am not frustrated with you or slappo about repeating it. I was more showing that this was already said...that there are people out there who are agreeing...I guess. Sorry.[/quote] My post had to do more with people thinking that the limit for each individual is based on what causes their body to be aroused. Yes every persons level of physical touch that they can maintain while remaining chaste is different, but ALSO that level is not dependent strictly upon what arouses their body. I've followed this thread fairly carefully (considering I started it), and I don't remember anyone saying that arousal does not necessarily = unchaste (although it can depending on intentions, like if the intention was for arousal). The kiss that I give my girlfriend can be completely chaste although sometimes it may cause arousal, but that same kiss can be completely lustful if I am doing it for the [b]purpose[/b] of causing arousal. If arousal is merely an unintended occurence the act isn't sinful by necessity, although it could still be sinful. Groping your girlfriend but not having the "intention" of arousal I'd say is a disordered form of affection and therefore sinful, however an arousing fairly quick kiss is not a disordered form of affection for a dating couple even though it may cause arousal. I hope that's clear. Now for some people... they may not be able to hold good intentions when say... kissing... and that is when you enter into the realm of subjectivity. I would personally say that any disordered form of affection is objectively sinful, while any other form of affection is objectively pure but can become subjectively sinful by intentions.
Resurrexi Posted February 5, 2009 Posted February 5, 2009 I'm really surprised that there are people who are okay with French kissing, making out kissing, petting, and groping, which are, according to Catholic moral theology, gravely sinful! It is my personal opinion, that any more than around ten seconds is too long for kissing... and as for touching: I don't think sitting on the other person's lap would be the best thing to do.
Slappo Posted February 5, 2009 Author Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1772347' date='Feb 4 2009, 05:35 PM']I'm really surprised that there are people who are okay with French kissing, making out kissing, petting, and groping, which are, according to Catholic moral theology, gravely sinful! It is my personal opinion, that any more than around ten seconds is too long for kissing... and as for touching: I don't think sitting on the other person's lap would be the best thing to do.[/quote] I started off telling my girlfriend that I'm not comfortable doing anything with her that I couldn't do with my mother. I.E to this day I'll still lay my head on my moms shoulder/lap watching a movie, and it wouldn't be too weird to give her a kiss on the lips (although not common between my mom anyways)... but other then that my girlfriend and I don't really do anything. Sure I cuddle more often with her, kiss her more often etc then I would my mom but...
picchick Posted February 10, 2009 Posted February 10, 2009 [quote name='Slappo' post='1772655' date='Feb 5 2009, 12:14 AM']I started off telling my girlfriend that I'm not comfortable doing anything with her that I couldn't do with my mother. I.E to this day I'll still lay my head on my moms shoulder/lap watching a movie, and it wouldn't be too weird to give her a kiss on the lips (although not common between my mom anyways)... but other then that my girlfriend and I don't really do anything. Sure I cuddle more often with her, kiss her more often etc then I would my mom but...[/quote] Is that your gf in your picture?
Resurrexi Posted June 8, 2009 Posted June 8, 2009 It still disgusts me that Catholics would approve of frenching, making out, petting, and groping anyone to whom one is not married.
Christie_M Posted June 8, 2009 Posted June 8, 2009 are you getting that information from the poll or from posts?
VeniteAdoremus Posted June 8, 2009 Posted June 8, 2009 I kissed a guy's hands last Saturday... And I'm not married to him. (Although someone asked him whether I was his wife once.) To be fair, he was (is) a newly ordained priest and it's proper etiquette . But to get back on topic: I'm a cuddling person. So I cuddle. Fortunately I have friends (male and female) who are also cuddly people. I watched the film "Karol" with my back against the knees/shins (under three layers of habit) of a 48-year old sister because 1. we were out of chairs and 2. we were emotional, and I have done similar things with guys back when I still dated. I don't see a problem with that. At the same time, there are a few people who give me the wrong "vibes", and I won't even allow them to straighten my choir surplice. So I agree wholeheartedly with the people who pointed out that intent is half the battle.
jeffpugh Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 Yeah, I hope we all can be unanimous about that. Intent can make or break an action. "Is it for the best of the other person or solely for my own gain?" that is the question to ask. It's not the only question, but it should be one of the first...
AngelofMusic Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 (edited) As a 'young in' I can see why maybe the poll indicates that people are ok with making out and the like. I don't like it much.. a simple kiss on the lips or cheek is perfectly fine with me. I don't really like PDA anyways.. especially not in church. Maybe holding hands would be alright. Hugging is fine.. but the hug cannot last too long unless there is an extenuating circumstance [I believe someone mentioned his girlfriend's mother dying]. Before marriage, I think massages would be ok if the person's back or feet were in a lot of pain and the other person was simply trying to alleviate that pain. A head in the lap and sitting on someone's lap would be ok only if there is a pillow and you are COMPLETELY out of chairs and the floor is not really in a sittable place/condition. Groping and beyond DEFINITELY not. But that's just me. Edited June 14, 2009 by AngelofMusic
southern california guy Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1886609' date='Jun 8 2009, 03:41 PM']It still disgusts me that Catholics would approve of frenching, making out, petting, and groping anyone to whom one is not married.[/quote] I think "approve" might be too strong of a word. But... hypothetically speaking of course.. a lot of us have done these things. However we didn't take any clothes off and have sex! Yes its probably not the best behavior possible but I have had a girlfriend sit on my lap in her hot tub and we um.. messaged each other. And maybe even kissed. And even worse I've been to some movies that got a bit boring.. and then.. well you know.. maybe her leg and thigh leaned against mine.. and maybe I accidentally rubbed her leg with my hand.. and she maybe rubbed my legs too.. and maybe she rested her head against mine.. and maybe we rubbed arms and held hands... and had to sit through all of the credits at the end of the movie -- because I was maybe a bit um.. aroused. Did we go too far? I don't know... I'm don't think that I'm shallow or anything.. but don't think that I would go out with a girl/woman that I didn't find attractive.. And it is awfully tempting to be a little affectionate -- within bounds! Edited June 14, 2009 by southern california guy
Guest lmgilbert Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 Well, I've heard on Dr Dobson, and personal experience bears it out, that when physical affection begins, it is naturally progressive. Holding hands is a typical first gesture, but after a while it is not enough. So with the first physical expression, the clock is ticking so to speak. In terms of maintaining one's chastity, the longer that first gesture can be put off the better. Secondly, we live in a very loose culture, so it is safer to assume that our own moral outlook is somewhat affected by it for the worse. In other words, you can't really go very wrong by being (what seems to be) too strait-laced. Emphatically, you want to err on the side of chastity and holiness. Thirdly, growing up in this culture means having an imagination filled with all sorts of bad example, across the whole spectrum of sexual expression. We don't want to put ourselves in a situation where our moral principles gradually surrender command to our imagination and feelings. The moment when that happens is not always a sharply drawn line. From the get-go of every relationship, the assumption should be that this relationship can lead to marriage. Since marriage is for a lifetime, you want to have the best marriage possible, and for that you want to have the blessing of God. But I have never known a couple who sexually indulged before marriage (and here I am not necessarily speaking of intercourse) who did not feel the lash one way or another after their marriage. I have seen it again and again. Putting it starkly, you have no right to ANY sexual indulgence before marriage. Guys, until you've exchanged vows, you have no right to her, period.
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