jeffpugh Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 [quote name='lmgilbert' post='1890498' date='Jun 14 2009, 05:04 PM']Well, I've heard on Dr Dobson, and personal experience bears it out, that when physical affection begins, it is naturally progressive. Holding hands is a typical first gesture, but after a while it is not enough. So with the first physical expression, the clock is ticking so to speak. In terms of maintaining one's chastity, the longer that first gesture can be put off the better. ...[/quote] That's interesting. I think I understand 'cause after the first "gesture", you become more desensitised and "need" more "stimulation" to get the same feeling of affection. I guess chastity keeps this in line though. As for the rest of the post, I'll keep that in mind too. Thanks for your thoughts. And welcome to Phatmass!
Nihil Obstat Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 [quote name='lmgilbert' post='1890498' date='Jun 14 2009, 04:04 PM']Putting it starkly, you have no right to ANY sexual indulgence before marriage. Guys, until you've exchanged vows, you have no right to her, period.[/quote] How do you personally specifically define "sexual indulgence"?
HisChildForever Posted June 15, 2009 Posted June 15, 2009 (edited) First let me state that I completely understand and accept the Church's stance on sexuality, courtship, marriage, etc. Just so there's no confusion. As a 21 year old, I have to say that when I think about dating, the future looks pretty bleak. I have yet to meet someone my age - with the exception of my seminarian friends - who would follow the "Catholic way" of dating. Obviously I first need to be asked out on a date, but in all honesty sometimes I wonder what the point is in dating someone my age who is not a devout Catholic. (And it's not like devout Catholic men in their 20's are easy to find.) You go out a few times with the non-Catholic, awesome. But once things turn serious, your now significant other WILL want to be intimate with you. A lot of them do NOT mean anything disrespectful by this, they just are in love and want to show that affection physically - in the most intimate kind of way. They simply do not know any better. Even if this person had the best intentions (they don't view sex as a "fun time"), they WILL struggle with chastity and there will be numerous problems in the relationship, EVEN IF they are a wonderful and caring person. It's just really frustrating, because any time you are asked out by a "secular" guy/girl, there is the possibility that feelings will develop and a relationship will bloom; and you are then on a rocky, rocky path - and you are so entangled in one another that you WILL stay together but be constantly at odds with each other, something that is not healthy at all. In all honesty, what are the chances that a devout Catholic and a non-Catholic (I should say a non-religious) can have a successful, beautiful, healthy, PURE, relationship? I know it has happened, but the chances are slim. ESPECIALLY when you are in your 20s and people your age who are "secular" want to go out, drink, party, and sleep with their girlfriends/boyfriends. Just think about it. You have been dating someone (say an agnostic) for 3 months, you just made it official, and they try and give you a "deep" kiss. When you politely pull back and explain that it's inappropriate, the relationship is pretty much over. It almost makes sense to wait until the early 30s to date, because by then both parties are out in the work force and just more mature and professional. Going on dates in your 30s is just different (I would imagine) because by that point, while the physical connection would be nice, you put more weight on the emotional connection (whereas in your 20s the weight is pretty much evenly distributed). Therefore that person would be more willing to wait, whereas the 20-something year old wants to have sex. Maybe my thoughts are WAY off here, of course there are exceptions, but this is just a general musing on my end. A lot of what I said is really biased, because I was involved with someone who was irreligious and when I tried to explain to him that we couldn't do X Y and Z anymore, he genuinely didn't get it. He told me that he was in love with me and that sometimes he couldn't find the words to express this, and expressing it physically made it all the more powerful. Believe me, the relationship was not healthy for other reasons, but this guy was being genuine. He really didn't get it. It just comes to a point where there's only so much you can do to explain. Edited June 15, 2009 by HisChildForever
missionseeker Posted June 15, 2009 Posted June 15, 2009 My dad wasn't wasn't even baptized when my mother married him. My sister is engaged to a not-really-religious-guy who has had no problems with her stand on this. In fact, he is really in agreement with her. Which his parents don't even get. so.. it's not hopeless. Not recommended, either. Just not hopeless.
Vasilius Konstantinos Posted June 15, 2009 Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1890662' date='Jun 14 2009, 08:43 PM']First let me state that I completely understand and accept the Church's stance on sexuality, courtship, marriage, etc. Just so there's no confusion. As a 21 year old, I have to say that when I think about dating, the future looks pretty bleak. I have yet to meet someone my age - with the exception of my seminarian friends - who would follow the "Catholic way" of dating. Obviously I first need to be asked out on a date, but in all honesty sometimes I wonder what the point is in dating someone my age who is not a devout Catholic. (And it's not like devout Catholic men in their 20's are easy to find.) You go out a few times with the non-Catholic, awesome. But once things turn serious, your now significant other WILL want to be intimate with you. A lot of them do NOT mean anything disrespectful by this, they just are in love and want to show that affection physically - in the most intimate kind of way. They simply do not know any better. Even if this person had the best intentions (they don't view sex as a "fun time"), they WILL struggle with chastity and there will be numerous problems in the relationship, EVEN IF they are a wonderful and caring person. It's just really frustrating, because any time you are asked out by a "secular" guy/girl, there is the possibility that feelings will develop and a relationship will bloom; and you are then on a rocky, rocky path - and you are so entangled in one another that you WILL stay together but be constantly at odds with each other, something that is not healthy at all. In all honesty, what are the chances that a devout Catholic and a non-Catholic (I should say a non-religious) can have a successful, beautiful, healthy, PURE, relationship? I know it has happened, but the chances are slim. ESPECIALLY when you are in your 20s and people your age who are "secular" want to go out, drink, party, and sleep with their girlfriends/boyfriends.[/quote] I always found dating outside of the Faith is frustrating. I have also witnessed people who dated outside of their faith and made excuses like they are witnessing to them about the faith while they are dating them; absurd nonetheless. [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1890662' date='Jun 14 2009, 08:43 PM']Just think about it. You have been dating someone (say an agnostic) for 3 months, you just made it official, and they try and give you a "deep" kiss. When you politely pull back and explain that it's inappropriate, the relationship is pretty much over.[/quote] Not always true, but I am sure it happens alot. I have seen a relationship where the man intended to do the deed/sex one night with a pretty gal he met and the next thing he knew he was on the ground in pain as he realized that she kneed him in the groin just for trying to give her a peck on the cheek. Three years later they got married, as she made him wait for a kiss all the way to their wedding day. This was my cousin who lives in San Diego CA. [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1890662' date='Jun 14 2009, 08:43 PM']It almost makes sense to wait until the early 30s to date, because by then both parties are out in the work force and just more mature and professional. Going on dates in your 30s is just different (I would imagine) because by that point, while the physical connection would be nice, you put more weight on the emotional connection (whereas in your 20s the weight is pretty much evenly distributed). Therefore that person would be more willing to wait, whereas the 20-something year old wants to have sex.[/quote] Also, not always true but sadly common. Date in your 20's and do not settle for anything less than what you desire in a man who is to be the Priest in your home and the bringer of little joys in your world. If you are intended for marriage then by all means go out, but here is something: Do not date. Just befriend them and go and have fun, but not date. A "Date" creates an image of what people are supposed to do when out with the opposite sex. "Dating" has this misnomer about it that makes the psyche overflow with images of hearts and sexual phantasy. Befriending creates the image of friendship as the center, which love is also involved. I hope you befriend your future husband, if God so wills it and I hope you avoid "dating" altogether. [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1890662' date='Jun 14 2009, 08:43 PM']Maybe my thoughts are WAY off here, of course there are exceptions, but this is just a general musing on my end. A lot of what I said is really biased, because I was involved with someone who was irreligious and when I tried to explain to him that we couldn't do X Y and Z anymore, he genuinely didn't get it. He told me that he was in love with me and that sometimes he couldn't find the words to express this, and expressing it physically made it all the more powerful. Believe me, the relationship was not healthy for other reasons, but this guy was being genuine. He really didn't get it. It just comes to a point where there's only so much you can do to explain.[/quote] No need to explain. I hate the word love sometimes, especially when it is overused. An old associate of mine who happens to be Roman Catholic once explained to me what love is. Love is not the feeling you get when you are out on your date in a movie theatre when you touch hands in the popcorn. Love is not the time when you drop to one knee and propose to live the rest of your life with that one person. Love is not the time when you walk down the aisle and say "I do" or "I will". Love is not the time you make up after you have your fifth argument in one week after being married for a year. Love is not the time you have your first child together. Love is not the first time you celebrated your 10th anniversary together. Love is the time you held his/her hand when they were in more pain than they could bare. Love is when you carried your spouse to the toilet when they could no longer walk to it, and helped them with every duty needed. Love is when you can wake up after a horrible night in disagreement, still be in disagreement and still be able to tend to their needs and wants even in anger. Love is being able to wake up and admit you were wrong when you were. Love is being able to listen even if you heard it said 1000 times 1000. And finally love is being able to see them at their worst and accept them as they see you at your worst and accept them. This does not take place right away and in some marriages it can take place after fifty years of marriage. but you are not in love until you can do all this and much more. This is why marriage councilors roll their eyes when they hear "we're in love and want to get married"...
jeffpugh Posted June 15, 2009 Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='Vasilius Konstantinos' post='1891101' date='Jun 15 2009, 01:25 AM']I always found dating outside of the Faith is frustrating. I have also witnessed people who dated outside of their faith and made excuses like they are witnessing to them about the faith while they are dating them; absurd nonetheless. Not always true, but I am sure it happens alot. I have seen a relationship where the man intended to do the deed/sex one night with a pretty gal he met and the next thing he knew he was on the ground in pain as he realized that she kneed him in the groin just for trying to give her a peck on the cheek. Three years later they got married, as she made him wait for a kiss all the way to their wedding day. This was my cousin who lives in San Diego CA. Also, not always true but sadly common. Date in your 20's and do not settle for anything less than what you desire in a man who is to be the Priest in your home and the bringer of little joys in your world. If you are intended for marriage then by all means go out, but here is something: Do not date. Just befriend them and go and have fun, but not date. A "Date" creates an image of what people are supposed to do when out with the opposite sex. "Dating" has this misnomer about it that makes the psyche overflow with images of hearts and sexual phantasy. Befriending creates the image of friendship as the center, which love is also involved. I hope you befriend your future husband, if God so wills it and I hope you avoid "dating" altogether. No need to explain. I hate the word love sometimes, especially when it is overused. An old associate of mine who happens to be Roman Catholic once explained to me what love is. Love is not the feeling you get when you are out on your date in a movie theatre when you touch hands in the popcorn. Love is not the time when you drop to one knee and propose to live the rest of your life with that one person. Love is not the time when you walk down the aisle and say "I do" or "I will". Love is not the time you make up after you have your fifth argument in one week after being married for a year. Love is not the time you have your first child together. Love is not the first time you celebrated your 10th anniversary together. Love is the time you held his/her hand when they were in more pain than they could bare. Love is when you carried your spouse to the toilet when they could no longer walk to it, and helped them with every duty needed. Love is when you can wake up after a horrible night in disagreement, still be in disagreement and still be able to tend to their needs and wants even in anger. Love is being able to wake up and admit you were wrong when you were. Love is being able to listen even if you heard it said 1000 times 1000. And finally love is being able to see them at their worst and accept them as they see you at your worst and accept them. This does not take place right away and in some marriages it can take place after fifty years of marriage. but you are not in love until you can do all this and much more. This is why marriage councilors roll their eyes when they hear "we're in love and want to get married"...[/quote] This is one of the most excellent posts I've read on this topic. Thank you. Missionseeker and I have been conversing about this tonite, and we came to the same conclusions, but the last part has helped put our struggle of being far away into perspective.
Vasilius Konstantinos Posted June 15, 2009 Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1891121' date='Jun 15 2009, 01:56 AM']This is one of the most excellent posts I've read on this topic. Thank you. Missionseeker and I have been conversing about this tonite, and we came to the same conclusions, but the last part has helped put our struggle of being far away into perspective.[/quote] Well good. I hope things go in awesome directions for you two. Cheers!
Christie_M Posted June 16, 2009 Posted June 16, 2009 [quote name='Vasilius Konstantinos' post='1891414' date='Jun 15 2009, 11:35 AM']Well good. I hope things go in awesome directions for you two. Cheers![/quote] i agree. there are a few posts on this thread that really put everything in perspective, and that was one of them
picchick Posted June 16, 2009 Posted June 16, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1890662' date='Jun 14 2009, 08:43 PM']First let me state that I completely understand and accept the Church's stance on sexuality, courtship, marriage, etc. Just so there's no confusion. ....................... Maybe my thoughts are WAY off here, of course there are exceptions, but this is just a general musing on my end. A lot of what I said is really biased, because I was involved with someone who was irreligious and when I tried to explain to him that we couldn't do X Y and Z anymore, he genuinely didn't get it. He told me that he was in love with me and that sometimes he couldn't find the words to express this, and expressing it physically made it all the more powerful. Believe me, the relationship was not healthy for other reasons, but this guy was being genuine. He really didn't get it. It just comes to a point where there's only so much you can do to explain.[/quote] The periods were just to shorten this post. HOLY COW I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND! Yeah it happens. Yeah it works for people. Miracles happen. However, relationships are hard people. They just are. And when you are going out with someone who just doesn't get it, well, it makes it all the more harder. I dated someone who was agnostic for 3 years. I dated him because I loved him and he loved me. I thought he would change. Well he didn't, he became wiccan. Throughout that time he got it but he didn't. And it is just so easy for people to say, "Just break up with him" isn't it? When you are in that situation it is harder. I see now why it is over and I am glad that it is. I know that I am where I am suppose to be for now. But being in that situation is just hard. About being 21 and the things that come with that. I KNOW TOO! It is hard being 24 and trying to find someone who has the same values as me. And sometimes when you do find someone then it is way over the top. And at this time in my life, I don't want to mess around and date guy after guy after guy. It gets tiring and you hear the same lines and the same situations come into play. I've done that I am past that already. Anyways, I get what you are saying and agree 100%. [quote name='Vasilius Konstantinos' post='1891101' date='Jun 15 2009, 01:25 AM']I always found dating outside of the Faith is frustrating. I have also witnessed people who dated outside of their faith and made excuses like they are witnessing to them about the faith while they are dating them; absurd nonetheless.[/quote] Yeah, that was me. It was extremely frustrating. I am glad that I am out of the situation now. I mean it was a painful process to get where I am now but I am still glad. THe only thing though, is when you are in the situation like me and you were going with the guy for 3 years, well, more emotions are in play and you stick to that excuse like glue. You defend that relationship to the death sometimes. But in the end, I realized that you cannot change the person. I see that now. [quote]No need to explain. I hate the word love sometimes, especially when it is overused. An old associate of mine who happens to be Roman Catholic once explained to me what love is. Love is not the feeling you get when you are out on your date in a movie theatre when you touch hands in the popcorn. Love is not the time when you drop to one knee and propose to live the rest of your life with that one person. Love is not the time when you walk down the aisle and say "I do" or "I will". Love is not the time you make up after you have your fifth argument in one week after being married for a year. Love is not the time you have your first child together. Love is not the first time you celebrated your 10th anniversary together. Love is the time you held his/her hand when they were in more pain than they could bare. Love is when you carried your spouse to the toilet when they could no longer walk to it, and helped them with every duty needed. Love is when you can wake up after a horrible night in disagreement, still be in disagreement and still be able to tend to their needs and wants even in anger. Love is being able to wake up and admit you were wrong when you were. Love is being able to listen even if you heard it said 1000 times 1000. And finally love is being able to see them at their worst and accept them as they see you at your worst and accept them. This does not take place right away and in some marriages it can take place after fifty years of marriage. but you are not in love until you can do all this and much more. This is why marriage councilors roll their eyes when they hear "we're in love and want to get married"...[/quote] I tell people who use love and have talked about love to people a lot. You can certainy love someone with just emotion. However, true love is that loving emotion producing action. From love comes action. People don't get that. "I love you" is fine however, from that love comes action. Beautiful thoughtful posts HCF and Vasi K! Probably the best this thread has seen.
missionseeker Posted June 20, 2009 Posted June 20, 2009 [quote name='picchick' post='1892998' date='Jun 16 2009, 10:16 AM']I tell people who use love and have talked about love to people a lot. You can certainy love someone with just emotion. However, true love is that loving emotion producing action. From love comes action. People don't get that. "I love you" is fine however, from that love comes action. Beautiful thoughtful posts HCF and Vasi K! Probably the best this thread has seen.[/quote]
Guest AgapeAdvocate Posted June 20, 2009 Posted June 20, 2009 I'm a college senior and I tackled this question all through high school. I even gave a talk about the subject at a lifenight and my views have changed a lot since then. I'm not accusing the poster of anything, but usually when you ask "how far can I go", it's the wrong question. I've been taught a couple different ways to address the subject but ultimately, it comes down to love. If you truly love your girlfriend or fiance, you will treat them with respect. They may or may not be your future spouse, the one you'll be united with in this lifetime to form one of the most holy bonds. Whatever you do with her, you might be doing with someone else's future spouse. You would want someone to treat your wife with all the love and respect you will, even before she becomes your wife. In high school, I was foolish. I'll admit it. I didn't look at girls the way I do today. Looking back, I wish I would have had the kind of commitment and respect for girls that I do today. All that being said, saving your first kiss for marriage could be awesome! It's really hard to do for some people but anything is possible with Christ. I think it's wrong to say you can't do anything that will arouse you because let's be honest, guys are hot wired a little differently than girls. Just looking at your girlfriend can get you aroused. Treat her with respect, as Christ would. She's not yours until her daddy gives her to you pal. Keep your pants on! I wish I were better at explaining and with a little more time I could fine tune the post to say exactly what I mean but instead just check this out: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c800q53nysw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c800q53nysw[/url]
Paladin D Posted June 21, 2009 Posted June 21, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1890662' date='Jun 14 2009, 09:43 PM']First let me state that I completely understand and accept the Church's stance on sexuality, courtship, marriage, etc. Just so there's no confusion. As a 21 year old, I have to say that when I think about dating, the future looks pretty bleak. ........ In all honesty, what are the chances that a devout Catholic and a non-Catholic (I should say a non-religious) can have a successful, beautiful, healthy, PURE, relationship? I know it has happened, but the chances are slim. ESPECIALLY when you are in your 20s and people your age who are "secular" want to go out, drink, party, and sleep with their girlfriends/boyfriends.[/quote] Yep yep yep... dang shame, dang shame. I feel your pain.
MissyP89 Posted June 26, 2009 Posted June 26, 2009 I've given this some thought, and I've come to the conclusion that one simply can't apply a certain standard of morality to all people, at least in this. What's fine for one couple might land another in some really hot water. I guess the best thing you can do is use common sense, set a limit, and stick to it. I know where my limit is, and I know not to go beyond that. Getting aroused isn't automatically sinful, ESPECIALLY if you didn't mean it. One of my friends just told me that she went to the mall with her boyfriend when she was younger and tried on a new pair of pants. When he saw her in the new pants he was aroused...and they were modest. Like someone just said, you don't always have control over what happens to your body. Be respectful, be holy, and do everything with love.
jeffpugh Posted December 1, 2009 Posted December 1, 2009 So, what would one define "petting" as? I hope that's not too... untouchable of a question.
tinytherese Posted December 1, 2009 Posted December 1, 2009 [quote name='Sacred Music Man' date='30 November 2009 - 11:48 PM' timestamp='1259642932' post='2012360'] So, what would one define [b]"petting"[/b] as? I hope that's not too... [b]untouchable of a question[/b]. [/quote] Pun!
jeffpugh Posted December 2, 2009 Posted December 2, 2009 Ugh. Not helping. Anyone got an answer, pun not intended?
morostheos Posted December 2, 2009 Posted December 2, 2009 The Oxford English Dictionary defines it as "to engage in sexually stimulating caressing and touching."
tinytherese Posted December 2, 2009 Posted December 2, 2009 I'd say petting would be stroking the other person's body parts in a sensuous way.
jeffpugh Posted December 4, 2009 Posted December 4, 2009 So, to rehash an old discussion, would there be okay grounds to do this? E.g. caressing a cheek?
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