A Secret All Women Should Know

[MIKolbe]

humility seems big with you too.

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1329677589' post='2389432']
humility seems big with you too.
[/quote]

I was being sarcastic. Notice how I said "As long as it's behind a machine" implying I'm not quite so brave in person.

[Deus te Amat]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1329675877' post='2389409']


If there's one thing I have going for myself, it's blatant honesty. [b]I'm not very afraid to voice my opinions.[/b] I will bravely voice my Social Conservative views and Conservative values [b]as long as it's behind a machine.[/b]
[/quote]

[EmilyAnn]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1329675500' post='2389404']
It's never overwhelming, though. I can tolerate a little make-up, but I can't stand overwhelming make-up. If I wanted to court Ronald McDonald I would've asked him, thank you.
[/quote]

Kind of a change of tune from "[color=#282828]I absolutely hate all make-up". [/color]

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='Deus_te_Amat' timestamp='1329677980' post='2389436']




[/quote]

Stop being so nit-picky. If you want every common phrase to make sense than you are on the wrong thread!

But really, I'm putting a stop to this. I'm calling for a do-over.

[Sister Marie]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1329675348' post='2389403']
Well, you're not the first one to imply I treated women that wear bikinis and such are scum, but never do you see me say that on this thread, or anywhere else. Women that wear bikinis are not scum. Rather, they wear them for the reasons above.

When I mention that I myself prefer skirts over bikinis, I simply meant to say that despite what society tells you, men really do think modesty is attractive, and that if you want to attract the right kind of guys, modesty is the way to go. Modesty attracts men. The men you want to attract. The men that don't want you for your body, but see your modesty and they see what it says about you.

I believe you're going off my first post. Did you read any of my others that clarified everything? I believe I said twice that women can talk to a man first, and can in subtle ways show they are interested, but it's better if the man initiates the relationship, and it's definitely a must that the man proposes. Guys, imagine you were on a date with the girl of your dreams. You've been dating for two years, and you couldn't possibly love a human being more than you love this girl. You go on a walk on the beach, and she starts to talk about how she loves you, and wants to spend the rest of her life with you, and then she gets down on one knee, offers a ring and asks you to marry her. As Jason Evert says, the entire concept is so emasculating. Why? Because the man is the initiator. It's his role. When a woman takes the man's role, he feels emasculated.
[/quote]

You are still speaking as though the focus of women's lives is to find a man. Women shouldn't be doing or not doing ANYTHING to get a man. The idea is demeaning - and that is against the very values you are trying to promote with the idea of modesty. Women are not valued based on their attractiveness to men or on their virtue in the eyes of a man - they have value because of who they are in the eyes of God. Your attitude towards women is of the same flavor as the attitude of men who objectify women. They objectify women's bodies - you objectify their person. It is no woman's job to make you feel masculine.

I'm going to take this out of the realm of dating as well. The perfect woman as you describe her seems to me to be submissive, existing only to please man, and incredibly stupid seeing as she needs you to tell her how to be a woman. Where would our Church be without Catherine of Siena, Clare of Assisi, Teresa of Avila... all women of initiative who saw needs that men didn't and filled them, often making other people quite uncomfortable by challenging the status quo?

Real Christian women are confident, compassionate, intelligent, and strong women of faith. They are faithful, passionate, and committed workers for the Kingdom of God. They aren't dolls or decorations that you get to dress up the way you think they should be. Let God form them into the women they are supposed to be - that's His job. It is not the job of women to make you feel masculine.

I know you are only fifteen but you are voicing some twisted views about the roles of men and women. There are young women on this site who might be tempted to believe what you are saying because they are young and are still finding themselves and they do want to be found attractive by what they see as a nice young catholic man. It is very tempting to believe that you can be a good Catholic girl when you are presented with the very easy option of wearing the right thing, not wearing makeup, and not taking initiative.

Again, words matter. You should be more guarded with yours. It's called prudence and it is a very masculine quality to have.

Prayers for you.
Sister Marie

[Deus te Amat]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1329678248' post='2389443']


Stop being so nit-picky. If you want every common phrase to make sense than you are on the wrong thread!

But really, I'm putting a stop to this. I'm calling for a do-over.
[/quote]

Again, I give you

I am also typing this from my iPod. The difference is that if I'm too lazy to make sure my point is properly represented, I don't bother wasting everyone's time with the subsequent retractions and adendums that take up more time and far more energy than an original well thought out post would have warranted. This is not your homeschool circle where you are sheltered and able to call the shots. This is not even real life, where, believe it or not, you would be judged far more harshly than you have seen from those here. This is phatmass, where the majority of posters are adults. If you want to be treated like an adult, you need to act like one. There are no take backs or do overs. You said you hide behind a machine. So, there is time between your thought process and your submission of them. Think about what you are doing and the possible consequences that will arise before acting, and you wont have to accuse people of being "nit picky".

Edited February 19, 2012 by Deus_te_Amat

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='beatitude' timestamp='1329672932' post='2389384']
On a less serious but still sexist note, we have people tut-tutting at the immodesty of teenage girls and trying to police their clothing choices - something that they would never do when it's teenage guys.
[/quote]

Actually that is not true. Any mum worth her salt pays just as much as much attention to how her sons look as well as the daughters. Most guys try to wear stuff 5 times too big so its not usually a modesty issue, unless they are those morons who can't keep their pantaloons up. Boys who dress like that were banned from my house, girls who clothes were painted on were offered my 2x t shirts as cover-ups.

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='Sister Marie' timestamp='1329678344' post='2389445']


You are still speaking as though the focus of women's lives is to find a man. Women shouldn't be doing or not doing ANYTHING to get a man. The idea is demeaning - and that is against the very values you are trying to promote with the idea of modesty. Women are not valued based on their attractiveness to men or on their virtue in the eyes of a man - they have value because of who they are in the eyes of God. Your attitude towards women is of the same flavor as the attitude of men who objectify women. They objectify women's bodies - you objectify their person. It is no woman's job to make you feel masculine.

I'm going to take this out of the realm of dating as well. The perfect woman as you describe her seems to me to be submissive, existing only to please man, and incredibly stupid seeing as she needs you to tell her how to be a woman. Where would our Church be without Catherine of Siena, Clare of Assisi, Teresa of Avila... all women of initiative who saw needs that men didn't and filled them, often making other people quite uncomfortable by challenging the status quo?

Real Christian women are confident, compassionate, intelligent, and strong women of faith. They are faithful, passionate, and committed workers for the Kingdom of God. They aren't dolls or decorations that you get to dress up the way you think they should be. Let God form them into the women they are supposed to be - that's His job. It is not the job of women to make you feel masculine.

I know you are only fifteen but you are voicing some twisted views about the roles of men and women. There are young women on this site who might be tempted to believe what you are saying because they are young and are still finding themselves and they do want to be found attractive by what they see as a nice young catholic man. It is very tempting to believe that you can be a good Catholic girl when you are presented with the very easy option of wearing the right thing, not wearing makeup, and not taking initiative.

Again, words matter. You should be more guarded with yours. It's called prudence and it is a very masculine quality to have.

Prayers for you.
Sister Marie
[/quote]

I don't mean to imply that the sole purpose of a woman is to look for a man. I was simply saying if you are looking to get married, being modest attracts the right guys, while being immodest attracts the wrong ones. I don't mean to objectify women. Most of the time when I go outside I'm looking straight down so as not to look at an immodest woman in an impure manner. I honestly don't see how anything I have said implies any of these things you mention. Could you perhaps tell me where I've maybe implied it?

[Sister Marie]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1329678979' post='2389452']
I don't mean to imply that the sole purpose of a woman is to look for a man. I was simply saying if you are looking to get married, being modest attracts the right guys, while being immodest attracts the wrong ones. I don't mean to objectify women. Most of the time when I go outside I'm looking straight down so as not to look at an immodest woman in an impure manner. I honestly don't see how anything I have said implies any of these things you mention. Could you perhaps tell me where I've maybe implied it?
[/quote]

I thought quoting you was a pretty straightforward way of showing you where you implied all these things. As many other people have already told you, nuance. It's more in how you say things than what you are trying to say that offence is taken. You seem to pride yourself on saying what you want and being very opinionated but those are not good qualities if you have no prudence or thoughtfulness for others. You oversimplify extremely complicated issues and assert yourself as if you have all the solutions to them. If you look at your language - its all about how other people affect you. I see a lot of "I" and a lot of "me" and "my feelings" and "my preferences." I saw almost no thought at all about other people unless it was followed by a command or advice to them.

For example, if I were you I might say...

[i]Self confident and smart women are very attractive. They don't see the need to attract men with their bodies but with their hearts and minds and I am grateful for the example of Christian living they set for me. I'm so comfortable with my masculinity that I don't have a rigid set of standards for their behavior because I recognize their God given dignity and I am humbled by the genius of His creation. I wish more women would respect themselves in this way and challenge me to be a better man.[/i]

Meanwhile, what I hear from you is...

[i][size=4]"[color=#282828]Modesty attracts men. The men you want to attract. The men that don't want you for your body, but see your modesty and they see what it says about you... [/color][color=#282828] I believe I said twice that women can talk to a man first, and can in subtle ways show they are interested, but it's better if the man initiates the relationship."[/color][/size][/i]

[size=4][color=#282828]Does that help?[/color][/size]

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='Sister Marie' timestamp='1329680009' post='2389465']
I thought quoting you was a pretty straightforward way of showing you where you implied all these things. As many other people have already told you, nuance. It's more in how you say things than what you are trying to say that offence is taken. You seem to pride yourself on saying what you want and being very opinionated but those are not good qualities if you have no prudence or thoughtfulness for others. You oversimplify extremely complicated issues and assert yourself as if you have all the solutions to them. If you look at your language - its all about how other people affect you. I see a lot of "I" and a lot of "me" and "my feelings" and "my preferences." I saw almost no thought at all about other people unless it was followed by a command or advice to them.

For example, if I were you I might say...

[i]Self confident and smart women are very attractive. They don't see the need to attract men with their bodies but with their hearts and minds and I am grateful for the example of Christian living they set for me. I'm so comfortable with my masculinity that I don't have a rigid set of standards for their behavior because I recognize their God given dignity and I am humbled by the genius of His creation. I wish more women would respect themselves in this way and challenge me to be a better man.[/i]

Meanwhile, what I hear from you is...

[i][size=4]"[color=#282828]Modesty attracts men. The men you want to attract. The men that don't want you for your body, but see your modesty and they see what it says about you... [/color][color=#282828] I believe I said twice that women can talk to a man first, and can in subtle ways show they are interested, but it's better if the man initiates the relationship."[/color][/size][/i]

[size=4][color=#282828]Does that help?[/color][/size]
[/quote]

It helps, but I'm at a loss as to what I should do. When I use your example, I'm criticized for being too absolute, and for speaking on behalf of all other men, so instead I decided to state that these were my preferences, not the preferences of all men. You can never please everybody. Quite honestly, I like the route you suggest, but I can't use that one either, so I'm not sure what people expect me to do. I even tried your idea of asking people what they think instead of what I think in my new thread, but people still aren't very satisfied with it.

Edited February 19, 2012 by FuturePriest387

[Sister Marie]

Well, as much as you want a do over... that generally doesn't actually happen in real life... or in internet life either. You should let this topic go and start one about something less inflammatory and something that you actually know about or have experience with. Or a better idea would be to stop starting new topics and practice speaking appropriately in topics that have already been started.

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='Deus_te_Amat' timestamp='1329678709' post='2389448']
Again, I give you

I am also typing this from my iPod. The difference is that if I'm too lazy to make sure my point is properly represented, I don't bother wasting everyone's time with the subsequent retractions and adendums that take up more time and far more energy than an original well thought out post would have warranted. This is not your homeschool circle where you are sheltered and able to call the shots. This is not even real life, where, believe it or not, you would be judged far more harshly than you have seen from those here. This is phatmass, where the majority of posters are adults. If you want to be treated like an adult, you need to act like one. There are no take backs or do overs. You said you hide behind a machine. So, there is time between your thought process and your submission of them. Think about what you are doing and the possible consequences that will arise before acting, and you wont have to accuse people of being "nit picky".
[/quote]

Never do I say I hide behind a machine. In fact, I even implied I say my opinions in public, just not so bravely. There is a difference.

And actually, I would be treated much better. I wouldn't have people making fun of me the whole time, and they wouldn't even be yelling. They would be rationally telling me what I did wrong, and would tell me to try again. Or, this is my experience in life, anyway. Some people haven't been charitable to me in life, but that doesn't mean it's acceptable. We must be charitable to everyone, no matter what. So far in Open Mic, I haven't been treated very charitably. At times I deserved to be treated uncharitably, but this does [i]not [/i]mean you should treat me uncharitably. Every time I've been called on for doing something wrong, I didn't even know I did something wrong. People are yelling and critizing me for doing things I didn't know was wrong. God doesn't put me in Hell for doing things I didn't know were sins, so perhaps people should make sure I didn't know before criticizing me?

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='Sister Marie' timestamp='1329680657' post='2389473']
Well, as much as you want a do over... that generally doesn't actually happen in real life... or in internet life either. You should let this topic go and start one about something less inflammatory and something that you actually know about or have experience with. Or a better idea would be to stop starting new topics and practice speaking appropriately in topics that have already been started.
[/quote]

Well, I was simply following your advice, and I will do it again: I won't start new topics here. In fact, I probably never will. I'm being criticized for things I didn't know I was doing, and I've had just about enough of it. I thank you for all your wonderful advice, and for charitably pointing out my mistakes.

Yes, life and the internet rarely give do-overs, but thankfully, God gives us all as many do-overs as it takes to become holy. I hope we can all follow his example of forgiveness and understanding.

Edited February 19, 2012 by FuturePriest387

[Deus te Amat]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1329680730' post='2389475']


Never do I say I hide behind a machine. In fact, I even implied I say my opinions in public, just not so bravely. There is a difference.

And actually, I would be treated much better. I wouldn't have people making fun of me the whole time, and they wouldn't even be yelling. They would be rationally telling me what I did wrong, and would tell me to try again. Or, this is my experience in life, anyway. Some people haven't been charitable to me in life, but that doesn't mean it's acceptable. We must be charitable to everyone, no matter what. So far in Open Mic, I haven't been treated very charitably. At times I deserved to be treated uncharitably, but this does [i]not [/i]mean you should treat me uncharitably. Every time I've been called on for doing something wrong, I didn't even know I did something wrong. People are yelling and critizing me for doing things I didn't know was wrong. God doesn't put me in Hell for doing things I didn't know were sins, so perhaps people should make sure I didn't know before criticizing me?
[/quote]

I think you ought to go back and reread all your posts, because you keep objecting to people's interpretation of what you're saying. If we are misinterpreting it, the fault is on both sides.

The main reason, I think, that you haven't been received with "charity" as you say, is because the way you phrase things implies immediate judgement on people's lifestyles. Nuance is the key... We've had people on here in the past that have called lil red and icyp the sl. and wh. words for far less than you were insinuating. The Internet is a difficult place, and I guarantee that if these people were in real life, they would be acting with far more charity than if more secular people were responding to your posts on a Internet forum.

You can't play the martyr here because by posting anonymously, you give up the right to leniency. We don't know your (mental) age, history, background. All we see is what you say, and what you are saying is extremely controversial and must be defended. Since it does not back up with the "norms" of Catholicism, people are concerned that you are another rad trad troll.

I am not too much older than you, and I well remember the dogmatic pragmatism of being 15. But the world, as must be our thought, is extremely nuanced, and to speak as you are "behind a machine" invites the response you are receiving.

I am so happy that you recognize difficulties and are open to learning. Don't stop posting! People here want good and holy priests as much as you want to be one. Walk with us and let us walk with you, so that as the Church Family we may grow together and move toward holiness. We need to be taught just as much as you do, so please, forgive and have patience. You hae a superb sense of humor that will be most welcome here if you move back and realize WHY you have become so controversial.

Please, before I say anything more, reread your posts and try to see them from the perspective of me, a 21 year old female at college, or adrestia, who is a working woman, or lil red, who is a wife and mother, or even your mother, or Mary, or Sally who is looking to convert to Catholicism and seeing the "modest" perspective for the first time in your post.

May God be with you.
DtA