"i Need Feminism Because..." Cambridge University Students Sha

[photosynthesis]

It is a pet peeve of mine when people take historical and biblical figures and claim them for their own modern ideologies.  I'm not sure what Mary thinks of feminism.  

 

 

Have you read any of the links on "New Feminism" that people have provided here?

 

She didn't *say* she was a feminist. And 171 never claimed that she did. She *was* one. Real feminists advocate the equal dignity of all women and the beauty of their inherent femininity. That's the kind of feminism most of us are talking about here, unless I misunderstood some posters.  :unsure:

 

New Feminism is not what most of the world thinks of as feminism.  I used to be the president of the Feminist Majority Leadership Alliance when I was in college.  I majored in women's studies, I went to the Lilith Fair, I still have a big pile of Bikini Kill stuff on vinyl, and I saw the original Vagina Monologues.  When people asked me what I wanted to do with my women's studies degree, I said, "I think I'll work for Planned Parenthood."  That was my main career ambition when I was 19.  We used to go to crisis pregnancy centers, pretend we were pregnant and after being convinced to keep our babies (and not educated about our other 'reproductive choices' we reported this to NARAL.  I was basically a NARAL spy.  I know what feminism is.  Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

 

Then, I found Christ and my heart changed.  My boyfriend at the time was trying to convince me to have sex with him and I said I didn't feel comfortable because I wasn't on the pill and I didn't want to get pregnant.  "Well, if you ever got pregnant," he said, "I have some money saved up if you needed an abortion."  Pretty classy, huh?  I instantly became pro life at that moment and I am SO glad I didn't sleep with that guy!

 

I was sincerely trying to make God the center of my life for the first time (despite having been given the sacraments at the normal age).  I wondered, can I still call myself feminist and be Catholic?  Someone directed me to Feminists for Life, where I discovered a lot of information that was certainly not part of the women's studies curriculum I had swallowed.  I remember writing a few papers about the history of pro life feminism, and I spoke out against abortion and contraception in my classes.  Then, I got an email asking to come to my professor's office.  She was in charge of Women's Studies and the advisor for my major.  She told me she found my views on contraception "deeply disturbing" and that some of my classmates had complained.  My views on abortion were "offensive" to her and she told me that I need to find another major, and recommended that I do not take any more Women's Studies classes.  I really didn't want to leave the program because I had so many credits already.  She suggested that I switch to Communications, because there is some overlap between the two departments as to their required classes, and I wouldn't be that behind.  So now I have a Comm degree that I didn't actively want, and it took me an extra semester to get there!

 

My old professor and I had two completely different ideas of what feminism means.  And she made it clear that my ideas were unorthodox and unwelcome in her learning environment.  So frankly, I'm done.  I canceled my B-tch Magazine subscription, I stopped volunteering for feminist organizations, and I learned to cook.  I don't need feminism to speak for me, and I think it is wholly possible to uphold the dignity of women without aligning oneself with this movement.

Edited June 22, 2013 by photosynthesis

[beatitude]

I am having trouble making parts of your story add up, partly because of the reasons I gave in my earlier post (your mention of 'radical liberal feminists', for example, which is a total oxymoron - and any decent women's studies course should have taught you the difference between radical feminism and liberal feminism) and now because a few more things you say here (going to the Vagina Monologues, listening to certain music). Along with the snide remarks about shaving, these things make you sound like you are talking about the parody of feminism that gets bandied around aggressively by certain men, especially your statement that you 'learned to cook'. You have basically ticked all the stereotypes that they love to hear - you were a feminist because you didn't have a good father figure, but now you've discovered how lovely it is to be protected by men, and all your former feminist ideas (a taste for certain music and a habit of spying on crisis pregnancy centres) were replaced like lightning by the knowledge that women need to be financially dependent on men in order to reduce the divorce rate.

 

As a feminist, I won't try to speak for you, but I will continue to speak coherently for feminism itself and not allow people to walk away with the idea that it is best represented by your old CD collection and the rather muddled picture you have given here. I also dislike it when people retroactively try to graft feminism as a political philosophy onto historical and religious figures (even though I do agree with the statement that feminism has existed for as long as there have been women prepared to say 'Unfair'), I also agree that the vast majority of feminists are pro-choice, and I don't think it's helpful to pretend that they have somehow corrupted the 'real, true' feminism. Talking about it in those terms, as though it is a religion with a creed from which all these women have deviated, helps no one. (And I note that you yourself are also talking about it in those terms, in the manner of a born-again Christian giving testimony about her escape from some depraved cult.) However, it is also true that strong feminist critiques of the abortion industry exist - from women who are pro-choice. It's not a simple black-and-white movement, and nor should we expect it to be: it's as diverse as the women who are in it. And it is true that pro-life women involved in feminist activism can learn from feminist approaches to improve their own pro-life work. In this very thread, we have seen pregnancy and motherhood glorified and glamourised as something incredibly special - which yes, it is. But when it comes to a fifteen-year-old girl who is pregnant and scared, and who doesn't fit the stereotypical tragic image of such a girl, and who is from a relatively poor background, and who is unrepentant, and who needs financial support...the talk is less about how special motherhood is and more about how feckless some girls are and how to correct their bad morals. The moral discussion around abortion and the glorification of motherhood rarely extends to a discussion of economic need and how women as a group tend to be at an economic disadvantage. I've seen this on Phatmass a few times in the past, and also in this thread, which clearly sends the message that going to school and getting a job would be a second-best option for a mother, to be done only out of necessity. I am pro-life to the hilt, but I don't find it helpful to do that - I will instead draw on feminist critiques of how economic policy, educational inequality, and sexual pressure can disproportionately affect women, and use that to further pro-life aims. All this critical material is out there, in huge amounts, and again I am startled that someone with a women's studies degree is more preoccupied with the Vagina Monologues and leg hair rather than with women's political work.

 

In a world where so many women die at the hands of men, I'd rather see elimination of such violence than install myself under the patronage of a male protector like some damsel in distress. You might be quite happy with that scenario. Again, I won't pretend to speak for you. But neither do you speak for me and other feminists here, or our cooking skills, or our amount of body hair, or our musical tastes. If you want to discuss feminism, perhaps try and focus more on the corpus of feminist writing and political philosophy, and rely less on the jabs about cooking and shaving that we get so often.

Edited June 22, 2013 by beatitude

[LittleWaySoul]

It is a pet peeve of mine when people take historical and biblical figures and claim them for their own modern ideologies.  I'm not sure what Mary thinks of feminism.  

 

New Feminism is not what most of the world thinks of as feminism.  I used to be the president of the Feminist Majority Leadership Alliance when I was in college.  I majored in women's studies, I went to the Lilith Fair, I still have a big pile of Bikini Kill stuff on vinyl, and I saw the original Vagina Monologues.  When people asked me what I wanted to do with my women's studies degree, I said, "I think I'll work for Planned Parenthood."  That was my main career ambition when I was 19.  We used to go to crisis pregnancy centers, pretend we were pregnant and after being convinced to keep our babies (and not educated about our other 'reproductive choices' we reported this to NARAL.  I was basically a NARAL spy.  I know what feminism is.  Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

 

Then, I found Christ and my heart changed.  My boyfriend at the time was trying to convince me to have sex with him and I said I didn't feel comfortable because I wasn't on the pill and I didn't want to get pregnant.  "Well, if you ever got pregnant," he said, "I have some money saved up if you needed an abortion."  Pretty classy, huh?  I instantly became pro life at that moment and I am SO glad I didn't sleep with that guy!

 

I was sincerely trying to make God the center of my life for the first time (despite having been given the sacraments at the normal age).  I wondered, can I still call myself feminist and be Catholic?  Someone directed me to Feminists for Life, where I discovered a lot of information that was certainly not part of the women's studies curriculum I had swallowed.  I remember writing a few papers about the history of pro life feminism, and I spoke out against abortion and contraception in my classes.  Then, I got an email asking to come to my professor's office.  She was in charge of Women's Studies and the advisor for my major.  She told me she found my views on contraception "deeply disturbing" and that some of my classmates had complained.  My views on abortion were "offensive" to her and she told me that I need to find another major, and recommended that I do not take any more Women's Studies classes.  I really didn't want to leave the program because I had so many credits already.  She suggested that I switch to Communications, because there is some overlap between the two departments as to their required classes, and I wouldn't be that behind.  So now I have a Comm degree that I didn't actively want, and it took me an extra semester to get there!

 

My old professor and I had two completely different ideas of what feminism means.  And she made it clear that my ideas were unorthodox and unwelcome in her learning environment.  So frankly, I'm done.  I canceled my B-tch Magazine subscription, I stopped volunteering for feminist organizations, and I learned to cook.  I don't need feminism to speak for me, and I think it is wholly possible to uphold the dignity of women without aligning oneself with this movement.

What Beatitude said.

 

You continue to maintain that "feminism" is restricted to your view of it, or your experience of it. We're just trying to say that it's not. Your Women's Studies adviser didn't allow you to continue the major because of your views on abortion and contraception. So what? Is she the ultimate authority on what feminism really is? On how women can choose to express their feminism? No. She may have forced you to change your major (something I wouldn't have put up with-- I'm gonna believe what I want and major in what I want gosh darnit because I'm paying for this education), but she doesn't have the authority to tell people they can't be feminists and pro-life.

 

We've been telling you that we are not that sort of feminist, and yet you continue to tell us how wrong that kind of feminism is. I feel as though we're arguing in circles. No one is disagreeing with you that the sort of feminism you're discussing isn't a terribly good kind. We agree with that. And that's precisely why we feel the need to stand up for our feminism, which is, in my opinion, true feminism. Because we feel the need to defend women (for reasons others have posted in this thread and more) and stand up for their equal dignity, something that is not always upheld in today's society.

When it comes down to it, I think you and I probably believe a lot of the same things in this issue. The difference between us is the simple choice I've made to call myself a New Feminist, and your choice not to do so. And that's totally fine! You have every right not to call yourself a feminist, and I respect that. However, condemning all forms of feminism and telling us not to call ourselves feminists is something I have more of a problem with. I am a feminist, and I'm proud of it. Can you respect that?

[photosynthesis]

All this critical material is out there, in huge amounts, and again I am startled that someone with a women's studies degree is more preoccupied with the Vagina Monologues and leg hair rather than with women's political work.

 

First of all, I never got the degree.  If you read my story, it mentions that I have a communications degree.  I do talk about feminism in terms of orthodoxy/non-orthodoxy because the feminists I associated myself with looked at me as a traitor to the movement as soon as I stopped being pro choice.  And I am aware of the differences some see between radical and liberal feminism and I apologize for ruffling anyone's feathers.  Perhaps if I said "gender feminism" I would have made myself clearer.

 

I made references to ephemeral stuff like Bikini Kill and Eve Ensler to illustrate that I had immersed myself in feminist culture.  I read feminist books, I listened to feminist music, I watched feminist films, I admired feminist art.  It was an identity and a way of life for me and I'll be the first person to say that I was a living feminist cliche.  But it's part of my story, and I'm sticking to it.  Also, as a women's studies student, I preferred classes like "Women and Art," "Feminist Humor," and "Women in Literature" over "Women and Politics."  Even as a feminist, politics was not my thing.

 

I also mentioned cooking because as a feminist, I had no regard for domesticity.  Women had better things to do than spend hours in the kitchen and take care of their homes... at least, that's the way I saw it.  I didn't have time to cook, I was too busy trying to change the world!  And I know many women today who feel that cooking is somehow beneath them, and are proud of the fact that they don't cook.  I'm sure there are feminists out there who are great cooks, too, and I'm not saying that cooking is the antithesis to feminism, but in my closed mind, it was.  Little did I know that I would come to love cooking and baking.  I would love to make a career out of it someday but right now it is just something I do for myself and for my family.  And I was wrong to think that you can't change the world through cooking :)  

[Lil Red]

What beatitude and lws said. :)

[photosynthesis]

However, condemning all forms of feminism and telling us not to call ourselves feminists is something I have more of a problem with. I am a feminist, and I'm proud of it. Can you respect that?

 

Feminism is not a religion, there is no "feminist Magisterium" or Feminist Congregation for the Doctrine of Feminism.  You all have the right to call yourselves what you want to call yourselves.  And perhaps I should have fought harder when confronted with my old professor's disregard for my academic freedom.  She was an older woman who had been active in the pro choice movement of the 60's and 70's and she saw me as trying to undo everything she worked hard for--and I think that is how the majority of feminists view pro-life, anti contraception varieties of feminism.  Maybe there is something to be said for wanting to change a movement from within.  Me, I left because I know when I'm not wanted.

 

I can respect that some women seem to have managed to strike a balance between being feminists and the Church's teachings.  It's not a balance I've found for myself.  I think it is wholly possible to be pro-women, anti-sexism without being a feminist, and perhaps it's possible to be a feminist without being an anti-Catholic angry militant caricature like I was.  Our culture is pretty messed up and we're all trying to navigate it in the ways that make sense to us.

[WillT]

New Feminism is not what most of the world thinks of as feminism.

I think this was photosynthesis' main point, and I would agree that a good many people would have that same idea because the type of "feminist" she knew is the type often stereotyped in the media and on news stations. I can't say I blame her for leaving the movement behind since she was essentially in an abusive relationship with it.

At any rate, I think y'all are on the same side but talking past one another a bit.

[Lil Red]

Yeah, I love Marian devotions.  I'm part of Militia Immaculata!  But a lot of times people think of Mary as this quiet, humble, beautiful, perfect woman...and she was!  Really! But she's also confident, fearless, counter-cultural and courageous.  Authentic Marian devotion is compatible with plenty of ways to do feminism.  

 

And honestly, spreading Marian devotion is all well and good, but it's not always going to stop people from being vile.  There are plenty of people who love the Blessed Mother but keep other women in a separate compartment in their brain.  Or people who only focus on certain qualities of Mary, while ignoring others.  How can we expect people to foster a true, authentic Marian devotion if they have a problem with how they view women in the first place? 

 

i mean, honestly, i know a lot of older gentlemen who love Mary, pray the rosary, etc. but since they are part of the older generation, (yes, i know I'm generalizing among the older men I know) they do have this mindset of "oh, you young woman, you don't know much about x, y, z, let's pat you on your head and send you on your way." that stuff is infuriating and irritating. 

[Lil Red]

At any rate, I think y'all are on the same side but talking past one another a bit.

 

i'm beginning to think you're right. :) 

[LittleWaySoul]

At any rate, I think y'all are on the same side but talking past one another a bit.

Yep :)

[CatholicsAreKewl]

I'm a bit confused and I hope one of you might be able to clear this up for me. I don't understand what the purpose of the feminist movement is in America. Is it to raise awareness? Are there still laws that are unfair to women? Are you advocating for feminism within Catholicism? 

[southern california guy]

My biggest problem with "feminism" is the notion that the woman should be able to do it alone -- without a man's involvement.  An implied separation.  Almost like a loner or antisocial person who argues that they ".. don't need friends!"

 

The notion of "equality" is fine, but as a "non-feminist" man if I saw a guy fighting with another guy I might not intervene.  If I saw a man beating up a woman.. I would intervene.  A hardcore "feminist" might argue that there is no need for me to intervene and woman can protect themselves without my intervention.  And just because I am a man I am no more capable of taking on another man, than a woman is -- but that is just ridiculous.  Physically men are stronger. Chivalry is not a bad thing.  And the sort of "separation" that I perceive "feminist" seeking I would argue does not help anybody.  Does it make any logical sense to ignore common sense and attempt to view men and woman as "equal"??

Edited June 22, 2013 by southern california guy

[CrossCuT]

I'm a bit confused and I hope one of you might be able to clear this up for me. I don't understand what the purpose of the feminist movement is in America. Is it to raise awareness? Are there still laws that are unfair to women? Are you advocating for feminism within Catholicism? 

 

I agree that its hard to see its purpose directly since youre right...the laws are all equal.

However there is this cookie cutter mentality where men and womens roles are that STILL dictates how we act.

I do not think anyone (at least I hope not) is purposefully trying to be sexist, but there is a super strong predisposition in just the things we say and how we act.

People dont even realize half the time that what they say/do is actually degrading to women's place in society.

 

I think its all in the subtle, small things.

[CatholicsAreKewl]

I agree that its hard to see its purpose directly since youre right...the laws are all equal.

However there is this cookie cutter mentality where men and womens roles are that STILL dictates how we act.

I do not think anyone (at least I hope not) is purposefully trying to be sexist, but there is a super strong predisposition in just the things we say and how we act.

People dont even realize half the time that what they say/do is actually degrading to women's place in society.

 

I think its all in the subtle, small things.

 

So the movement is working to change peoples mentalities? How does it aim to do this? 

Edited June 22, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[WillT]

Glad I could help!