Lifeteen Mass

[rachael]

[quote name='mp15' date='Feb 2 2005, 12:36 PM']
And why is it that teens need something special for them to get closer to Christ? Why is it that only American teens need something special? Why not the rest of the world as  well? Is it mabey because American teens are a little shallow? If it doesn't make them "feel" good then we will lose them from the faith? Maybe instead of changing the Church we should start by changing American culture and family values.
[/quote]
Lifeteen is international.

[mp15]

[quote name='rachael' date='Feb 2 2005, 11:40 AM']Lifeteen is international.  So don't assume that us American teens are shallow.[/quote]
OK, I didn't know that , but I would be willing to wager that the largest following is here in the US correct?

Anyway that still doesn't address the larger question. [b]Why do teens need something special to get closer to God?[/b] We were doing just fine before Lifeteen. If you say that we were not then I would counter by saying that it has more to do with a societal problem rather than a faith one. So in that sense, yes teens are a bit shallow as well as the American culture as a whole.

Edited February 2, 2005 by mp15

[disturbedxfairy]

[quote name='Scofizzle' date='Feb 1 2005, 06:32 PM'] What I don't understand is how you would expect us to defend a relational ministry for teenagers with church teaching?

The mass is mass. LIFETEEN mass is the same as any other Mass just different music. Not really conprehending what you want from us here. [/quote]
well said

[randy_the_clown]

His Eminence Cardinal Arinze, Prefect of the Congregation of Divine Worship, stated his support for LIFE TEEN and said he was “heartened to see that dedicated persons have taken initiative to promote the liturgy especially since, in various parts of the world, a disaffection for the Mass is found among young people”.

Also... read the following FAQ from the liturgical changes that LIFE TEEN asked parishes to implement:

[b]Q&A Sheet[/b]

At LIFE TEEN, we are expecting that the news of these Liturgical changes is going to create a lot of questions. Our staff has anticipated some questions in a simple “Q&A” format. Take some time to read through these questions. If we have not dealt with your question here, or if you desire more clarity than what is provided here, feel free to contact us. We have included a Staff Contact Sheet. We would encourage you to contact your Regional Director or Area Coordinator for more information.

[b]Where did all this come from? I’ve never even heard of the GIRM![/b]
The General Instruction of the Roman Missal in the introduction to the Church’s Roman Missal (sometimes called the Sacramentary—that red book you see on the altar!), which describes the way in which Mass is supposed to be celebrated. A first edition of the Roman Missal was published in 1970 and was then revised in 1975 and again in the Jubilee Year of Our Redemption (2000). The GIRM asks the Bishops of each country to make certain adaptations, which were finished in the U.S. a couple of years ago. Since then, Bishops have been implementing the rules of the new GIRM across the country.

It is important to understand that we at LIFE TEEN submitted the LIFE TEEN model of youth liturgy to the Bishops almost two years ago and asked for direction about the way we approach the Liturgy. We specifically asked how LIFE TEEN could be completely in line with the new GIRM. The recent changes are the result of that request for direction. It has been, and always will be, our desire to be in complete obedience to the Roman Catholic Church and to our Bishops.

[b]Why is the Church doing this? And why are they singling out LIFE TEEN like we are being punished?[/b]
We are not being singled out. We asked the Bishops what we could change to be more in line with the new GIRM. LIFE TEEN is one of the many dioceses, parishes and national organizations impacted by the directions provided in the new GIRM. As a part of the Universal Catholic Church, we are part of the great gift, which is the Church of Jesus Christ. Our Holy Father and the Bishops are asking us to make these few changes so that we can be in unity with the whole Church. With LIFE TEEN, we are uniquely affected because the Eucharistic celebration is at the very heart of what we do. The Church is not doing anything to punish us. She is simply providing direction as to how we can all, as a Church and a family, pursue a more holy and unified celebration of the Eucharist. LIFE TEEN is not being singled out, or punished. In fact, these changes will draw us all more deeply into the heart of the Church and the mystery of the Eucharist.

[b]How are we going to do this? Teens around the altar IS LIFE TEEN![/b]
We always have to be careful that our “expressions” of faith do not “become” our faith. Gathering teens around the altar has been an expression of our faith. Nothing is ever more important to us than being obedient to the Pope and the Bishops as true Roman Catholics. While it is always important to foster a sense of being a part of a LIFE TEEN Community or a Parish Community, we’re also a part of the larger Church, just as Jesus intended. We think you will find that in time, these few ritual changes won’t be as crucial as you might fear right now. There have been some Dioceses throughout the country that have already implemented these changes, and to their surprise, the teens adapted very quickly.

More specifically, let’s discuss the reasons why we need to make this change. The GIRM is very specific throughout the entire document about how we are to celebrate the Sacred Liturgy. Nowhere in the document does it say that teens should come around the altar during the Eucharistic prayer. You could argue, “Well, it doesn’t say NOT to.” In a document that is so specific about the “how” concerning Mass, the general interpretation should be that we not “add” anything to what is already there.

There are also a couple of references in the GIRM that speak more directly to the Sanctuary and the role of the priest:

[b]The Sanctuary[/b]“The sanctuary is the place where the altar stands, where the word of God is proclaimed, and where the priest, the deacon, and the other ministers exercise their offices. It should suitably be marked off from the body of the church either by its being somewhat elevated or by a particular structure and ornamentation.” GIRM, #295

“The priest celebrant, the deacon, and the other ministers have places in the sanctuary.” GIRM, #294

[b]The Role of the Priest[/b]
“A priest also, who possesses within the Church the power of Holy Orders to offer sacrifice in the person of Christ, stands for this reason at the head of the faithful people gathered together here and now, presides over their prayer, proclaims the message of salvation to them, associates the people with himself in the offering of sacrifice through Christ in the Holy Spirit to God the Father, gives his brothers and sisters the Bread of eternal life, and partakes of it with them.” GIRM, #93

“During the Eucharistic Prayer, the deacon stands near the priest but slightly behind him, so that when needed he may assist the priest with the chalice or the Missal. From the epiclesis until the priest shows the chalice, the deacon normally remains kneeling.” GIRM, #179 (Even the Deacon is directed to kneel in the Sanctuary space during the epiclesis of Eucharistic Prayer)

[b]The people of our parish are going to be devastated if we can’t say, “The Mass never ends!” Why do we have to change this? [/b]
The GIRM is very specific about this. There are three options listed in article #168 for the closing of the Mass: Immediately after the blessing, with hands joined, the priest adds: Go in the Peace of Christ, or Go in peace to love and serve the Lord, or The Mass is ended, go in peace, and the people answer: Thanks be to God. There are not any other options given, so we have to choose one of these three.
[b]
Does this mean that the Catholic Church doesn’t like LIFE TEEN?[/b]
These changes in no way reflect any bad sentiments towards LIFE TEEN. Actually, it reflects just the opposite. The fact that LIFE TEEN has been recognized by the Church in an official capacity means that they see us, they see what they are doing. In fact, Cardinal Arinze mentioned that the Church sees the impact LIFE TEEN is making in the Church, especially in the area of vocations, and he encouraged us to continue with our mission.

These changes also hint of a more formal endorsement of LIFE TEEN by the Church. They are not asking us to discontinue LIFE TEEN Masses, they are not asking us to stop LIFE TEEN programs, they are not giving us a long list of concerns about LIFE TEEN. The Church, over a period of several years has been dialoguing about the implementation of this document, and for LIFE TEEN, they have only come up with these few changes. That seems like more of a good thing to us than a bad thing.

[b]What if our teens get really upset by all of this?[/b]
This is very possible. Our role as youth ministers and adults is to help young people see the bigger picture of the Church. We have to help them separate their “feelings” from what is true. That inherently requires us to do the same, and to do it before we get in a position where we are trying to lead them. If this is really upsetting to you, work through it BEFORE you try to announce it to your teens. Many times, God will use the process you went through to help others.

The bottom line is that we belong to the Roman Catholic Church, and we want to follow the leadership and direction given to us through her leaders. That never means “blind” obedience, but it does at times require trust in direction that we don’t understand. If there is an openness to discussion, and questions, and processing – most young people will be quick to adapt and follow the direction they are given. Actually, you may find the adults in your congregation much harder to deal with.

[b]What’s the most important thing to remember?[/b]
As always, the most important thing is to remember is the mission of LIFE TEEN: to help teens to embrace Jesus and his Church and obediently respond! All change is hard, but Christ is the one unchanging center to our lives, and the Church is the way we follow to be led to the cross of Jesus.

Maybe the words of Pope John Paul II when he commemorated the twenty-fifth anniversary of the Constitution on the Liturgy apply to us today as well:

[i]Since liturgical celebrations are not private acts but celebrations of the Church, the sacrament of unity, their regulation is dependent solely upon the hierarchical authority of the Church. The Liturgy belongs to the whole body of the Church. It is for this reason that it is not permitted to anyone, even the priest, or any group, to add, subtract or change anything whatsoever on their own initiative. Fidelity to the rites and to the authentic texts of the Liturgy is a requirement of the Lex orandi, which must always be in conformity with the Lex credendi.[/i]

[Meggie]

I was totally shocked in Theater History today


[quote] Spoken play devolopment began in Elizabethian times.  In ancient times, from the Ancient Greeks to the Ancient Romans, plays were chanted.  This chanting became part of culture.  A reminicant of this chanting is evident in two styles, what became a sung play, opera, and what developed into a religous solemnity, Gregorian Chanting[/quote]


SO to all those who complain about the music because Gregoring Chanting and all that follows is supposidly "holier" then look at that. It turns out that Chanting isn't man's way of talking to God at all.

The liturgucal abuses have been fixed and all that's left to complain about is the music. I wish people would wake up and see [i]that.[/i]


About American teens in particular needing further guidance....umm will you please step back and look at America...we're spoiled and moving away from Religion. Before they graduate it is said that an American teen is likely to have tried illegal drugs, known atleast one person to have committed sucide, have more than one friend or themselves come from a broken home....etc, etc...

I came to lifeteen last year, half-alive at 19, I was still in grade ten. I finished those three years of Seton Home study school in one, and was able to get to Niagara University in the honors program, and here I am. Its becasue of Lifeteen.

People I met:

D-athiest, child of one athiest parent, converted
B-fatherless, converted
A-sucidal in his mid teens, not confirmed, in college now
S-parents separated, all stability fell, headed to college
B-parents separated, mother had live-in boyfriend
J-military minded, no "need for God", revert
G-overweight, football, church persecutor, reverted, heathy
C-mouthy, sexcrazed, now a youth minister

....and this is just a small part of the youth group....it can also help teens with normal families learn about others, kids in youth group....S and C have learned how to work with teens who have little beliefs.

All because of Lifeteen

[randy_the_clown]

[quote]Anyway that still doesn't address the larger question. Why do teens need something special to get closer to God? We were doing just fine before Lifeteen. If you say that we were not then I would counter by saying that it has more to do with a societal problem rather than a faith one. So in that sense, yes teens are a bit shallow as well as the American culture as a whole. [/quote]

MP, can you tell me which country other than the US has a HUGE following of teens in their churches?

It seems to me that you are not attracted to a charismatic liturgy (LIFE TEEN aside, we can get into Cursillo, Marriage Encounter, Charismatic Communities and the like).

Getting down to the real argument... what do you propose? Offer a solution, or something to be debated. Your statements are generalized and offer no real evidence to back them up other than your opinion of "society" and "culture" as you see it.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='randy_the_clown' date='Feb 2 2005, 02:16 PM']
Getting down to the real argument [/quote]
This is what I would like to do. What is the argument against Lifeteen? What is wrong with the program? I have yet to hear something wrong about it from anyone. If it is a legit mass and is doing so much good in the Church, I can hardly see how it's a bad thing.

[mp15]

[quote name='randy_the_clown' date='Feb 2 2005, 01:16 PM']
MP, can you tell me which country other than the US has a HUGE following of teens in their churches?

It seems to me that you are not attracted to a charismatic liturgy (LIFE TEEN aside, we can get into Cursillo, Marriage Encounter, Charismatic Communities and the like).

Getting down to the real argument... what do you propose? Offer a solution, or something to be debated. Your statements are generalized and offer no real evidence to back them up other than your opinion of "society" and "culture" as you see it. [/quote]
Um,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I don't really need to offer up any evidence. Just take a look at the world around you. It will give you all the answers you need.


All I'm saying is this; Why the need for a special mass for teens? Parents should be instructing their kids in the faith. If they were doing their parenting resposibilities correctly there wouldn't be a need for lifeteen.

[randy_the_clown]

First of all, a simple look at the world around you does not address the need for evidence. What am I supposed to see? How do I know that what I see is not colored by my own bias? How do I know that your opinion is authoritative? How do I know what biases you carry into your own opinions? What answers is the world around me going to give?

1. Ashlee Simpson is talented.
2. Fear Factor should be a college course
3. The sky is blue

You are absolutely right in saying that "if parents were doing their parenting responsibilities there wouldn't be a need for LIFE TEEN."

They aren't, so there is a need. Any Questions?

[mp15]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Feb 2 2005, 01:28 PM']This is what I would like to do.  What is the argument against Lifeteen?  What is wrong with the program?  I have yet to hear something wrong about it from anyone.  If it is a legit mass and is doing so much good in the Church, I can hardly see how it's a bad thing.[/quote]
I would say that from my perspective the biggest problem would be the liturgical abuses that are happening. I understand that they have been instructed to stop these but I have a hard time believing that all the abuses have stopped.

My second biggest problem with it is this. What is it going to offer anyone once they reach adulthood? Beyond all the pop culture atmosphere (here today, gone tomorrow) I just can't see it having a lasting effect on a youth's life. It is all warm and fuzzy superficial fluff, like my protestant youth group I belonged to as a teen. It did nothing for my faith. I did get to hang out though, which I suspect is a reason a vast majority of teens like lifeteen. It just gives them another atmosphere in which they can socialize.

[mp15]

[quote name='randy_the_clown' date='Feb 2 2005, 02:27 PM']First of all, a simple look at the world around you does not address the need for evidence.  What am I supposed to see?  How do I know that what I see is not colored by my own bias?  How do I know that your opinion is authoritative?  How do I know what biases you carry into your own opinions?  What answers is the world around me going to give?

1. Ashlee Simpson is talented.
2. Fear Factor should be a college course
3. The sky is blue

You are absolutely right in saying that "if parents were doing their parenting responsibilities there wouldn't be a need for LIFE TEEN."

They aren't, so there is a need.  Any Questions?[/quote]
Let me just say that if you can't see what is going on in the world around you then you are definitely wearing rose colored glasses.

And just so you know;

1. Ashley Simpson is [b]not[/b] talented, just spoon fed to the youth to believe that she is.
2. Fear factor is a waste of air space.
3. The sky [b]is[/b] blue, unless it's cloudy or night time.

[Oik]

This thread blew up!

I agree with Toledo, we have to see what caused the action of LifeTeen to "institute" liturgical abuses. Look, the fact of the matter is, the people invovled in LT knew that what they were doing was *questionable.* It wasn't until the GIRM came out that outrage (although pre-existing the GIRM) over liturgical abuses reached a height. LT was especially targeted for it's "charismatic" image. LT, as an organization, has [b]insisted[/b] that the parishes affliated with it conform to the liturgical norms. So, LT has done it's part here.

[b]RACHEL PLEASE READ THIS CAREFULLY[/b]
The real question is what causesd the abuses to take place. It is important to note that very few actually dislike LT. It is seen as a great ministry to young peolpe. It is of paramount importance that what we teach our youth be Orthodox. As to this day, it has not been resolved as to whether LT has indeed proved that it's *unique* approach to LT fosters the want of the individual to grow in Orthodoxy. In fact, with all the results, one might argue that LT turns out a lot of Heterodox catholics. I do not hold this and I do not believe others hold this, however, the case could be made.


Now as for the Pope blessing LT and it being a ministry. Sure, it is. I think sufficient evidence exists that thi is the case. However, it is not the case that this insures Othrodoxy. Remember, it is a LAY MINISTRY. I think the case that is being made here, is that if LT could indeed show its Orthodoxy, it has the potential to do much more.

[goldenchild17]

[quote]I would say that from my perspective the biggest problem would be the liturgical abuses that are happening. I understand that they have been instructed to stop these but I have a hard time believing that all the abuses have stopped.[/quote]
And the Church doctrine tells us that we cannot worship Mary. And yet there are people, Catholics, who do so. Is Catholicism wrong because of this? They have done what they need to do, to forbid these practices.


[quote]My second biggest problem with it is this. What is it going to offer anyone once they reach adulthood?[/quote]
A stronger faith? What's wrong with that?

[quote]Beyond all the pop culture atmosphere (here today, gone tomorrow) I just can't see it having a lasting effect on a youth's life. It is all warm and fuzzy superficial fluff, like my protestant youth group I belonged to as a teen. It did nothing for my faith. I did get to hang out though, which I suspect is a reason a vast majority of  teens like lifeteen. It just gives them another atmosphere in which they can socialize.[/quote]

There is definitely a socializing aspect of the meetings, what's wrong with that? Would you rather they socialized in a back alley doing drugs? The Mass however, is still Mass.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Oik' date='Feb 2 2005, 03:42 PM'] I think the case that is being made here, is that if LT could indeed show its Orthodoxy [/quote]
And my question is, how is it currently NOT doing so?

[rachael]

[quote name='Oik' date='Feb 2 2005, 03:42 PM']

[b]RACHEL PLEASE READ THIS CAREFULLY[/b]
The real question is what causesd the abuses to take place. It is important to note that very few actually dislike LT. It is seen as a great ministry to young peolpe. It is of paramount importance that what we teach our youth be Orthodox. As to this day, it has not been resolved as to whether LT has indeed proved that it's *unique* approach to LT fosters the want of the individual to grow in Orthodoxy. In fact, with all the results, one might argue that LT turns out a lot of Heterodox catholics. I do not hold this and I do not believe others hold this, however, the case could be made.

[/quote]
Most people I know in Lifeteen or who are products of LT are probably some of the most Orthodox Catholics I know. I think it should be recogized as a stepping stone into the faith. Many of us would not be Catholics today if it weren't for LT. Yes, I know LT has made mistakes, but most people on here fail to recognize that it is changing. Change takes time. You can't expect everything to be perfect right off the bat.

I, myself, have actually started to grow away from LT. It's not that I'm disgusted with the program, because I still love the program, but that I have grown out of it, so to speak. I know that if I had been shoved full force into the faith, I would have just walked away, never to return. If it weren't for LT, I wouldn't be a Catholic today.

[randy_the_clown]

[quote]I would say that from my perspective the biggest problem would be the liturgical abuses that are happening. I understand that they have been instructed to stop these but I have a hard time believing that all the abuses have stopped.

My second biggest problem with it is this. What is it going to offer anyone once they reach adulthood? Beyond all the pop culture atmosphere (here today, gone tomorrow) I just can't see it having a lasting effect on a youth's life. It is all warm and fuzzy superficial fluff, like my protestant youth group I belonged to as a teen. It did nothing for my faith. I did get to hang out though, which I suspect is a reason a vast majority of teens like lifeteen. It just gives them another atmosphere in which they can socialize.[/quote]

Well, as far as the liturgical abuses, since each parish is beholden to its bishop for liturgical guidelines, then it is up to the individual bishop. However, what the statement from LIFE TEEN insisted upon (and each parish was called to be sure they got the message) was that the parish no longer perform the said actions under the guise of "LIFE TEEN." However, if a particular bishop allows a practice, then it is the bishop's call.

Your perspective on what it offers to reach adulthood is your own biases. Yes, if what you are saying is true, then you are right, but you must allow for the following:

1. That a teen who is there to socialize will never absorb anything other than a social aspect. Unfortunately, you can never prove this.
2. You must prove that the catechetical aspect is superficial fluff. Unfortunately you can never prove this either as there are 950 parishes that institue it in different ways with different degrees of depth. Then your issue is not with LIFE TEEN as a resource and program, but with the parishes who institute it as such.

[jezic]

[quote name='mp15' date='Feb 2 2005, 03:22 PM']


All I'm saying is this; Why the need for a special mass for teens? Parents should be instructing their kids in the faith. If they were doing their parenting resposibilities correctly there wouldn't be a need for lifeteen. [/quote]
the teens of today are raised in a society that is very different from ever before. Their interests aren't the same as their parents were. Half of then are bored so they sleep through Mass and think it is ok.

Why don't they need a special mass?

Not everyone is cookie cutter. God also made all of us different.

I would see the problem if there were liturgical abuses, however, if there is not a problem with that, than what is wrong?

[ilovechrist]

[quote name='mp15' date='Feb 2 2005, 03:22 PM'] All I'm saying is this; Why the need for a special mass for teens? Parents should be instructing their kids in the faith. If they were doing their parenting resposibilities correctly there wouldn't be a need for lifeteen. [/quote]
argh.. i was hoping this topic wouldn't come up again (referring to LifeTeen).

its obvious most parents aren't doing anything to instruct their kids. but here's my version of it..

my parents instruct me very well, as well as sending me to our high school religous education class at our parish (which does not have a LifeTeen program). i have nothing against the regular, organ and choir Mass that most parishes including my own have.

i went to FUS-Atlanta last summer, after hearing tons of good things about LifeTeen, and having lived in Steubenville for 10 years, am also very active with the Franciscan University's programs. i see LifeTeen as another option for going to Mass. its not [i]better[/i] than an ordinary Mass or anything like that. i however truly feel different in the 2 Masses, that i'm closer to Christ in the LT Mass.

since music is a big part of my life, i pay close attention to Mass music to make sure that there is no distraction from what's happening on the altar. and for those who are hypersensitive, i'm sorry, but there is no distraction from the altar if you have keyboards and acoustics instead of a pipe organ.

as for the liturgical abuses, they're being taken care of. i hadn't seen any of the abuses, but they're not widespread throughout the program, and they'll be gone soon.

LifeTeen is truly leading teens closer to Christ!

[randy_the_clown]

WOAH Rachel. MORE Orthodox practices?

First of all, the definition of Orthodox means "right practice." How is LT NOT Orthodox?

In the last 20 years, you must point out a time when LT went AGAINST the authority of Rome or the Bishop.

In the last 20 years, you must point out a time when LT promoted a teaching that went AGAINST the CCC.

In fact, LT has published 20 volumes of catechetical nights that cover the ENTIRE CCC and promoting social justice, pro-life, etc. NEVER has any of these nights gone against the Church or the Teaching Tradition therein.

Your tastes as an individual might change, but it is heretical to claim that a more traditional practice is MORE Orthodox then the Novus Ordo or the contemporary liturgy. It is all the same liturgy from the same authority. One is not "better" or "more right" then the other. Different spiritualities, tastes, and charisms may be drawn to different types of practice, but it does not illegitimize the other.

With this thread, there is the attitude that "my way is right and yours is not." What if Christ and the Holy Spirit in their wisdom see fit to bless the Church which at times has members who are broken and hurting and others who are blessed to have a deep faith with not only a liturgy that brings in, but which speaks to the soul of the given individual?

[rachael]

[quote name='randy_the_clown' date='Feb 2 2005, 04:04 PM'] WOAH Rachel.  MORE Orthodox practices?

First of all, the definition of Orthodox means "right practice."  How is LT NOT Orthodox? 

In the last 20 years, you must point out a time when LT went AGAINST the authority of Rome or the Bishop. 

In the last 20 years, you must point out a time when LT promoted a teaching that went AGAINST the CCC.

In fact, LT has published 20 volumes of catechetical nights that cover the ENTIRE CCC and promoting social justice, pro-life, etc.  NEVER has any of these nights gone against the Church or the Teaching Tradition therein.

Your tastes as an individual might change, but it is heretical to claim that a more traditional practice is MORE Orthodox then the Novus Ordo or the contemporary liturgy.  It is all the same liturgy from the same authority.  One is not "better" or "more right" then the other.  Different spiritualities, tastes, and charisms may be drawn to different types of practice, but it does not illegitimize the other. 

With this thread, there is the attitude that "my way is right and yours is not."  What if Christ and the Holy Spirit in their wisdom see fit to bless the Church which at times has members who are broken and hurting and others who are blessed to have a deep faith with not only a liturgy that brings in, but which speaks to the soul of the given individual? [/quote]
You're taking what I said out of context. I meant that LT is getting better than it was before. I wasn't saying that they were more Orthodox then anything else.


Listen, as I said before, I'm not good with words, so I might confuse a few people.