Lifeteen Mass

February 2, 2005

[quote name='kateri05' date='Feb 2 2005, 02:43 AM'] i've had multiple catholic converts or catholic reverts at my new lifeteen parish say that LIFETEEN is the reason that they converted/came back. [/quote]
So why make them "move on" to another church if they like this one? Is there something wrong with this mass? If there is I'd like to know. But the whole idea that this mass is simply a stepping stone only makes me believe that you all think it is not as good as any other mass, and should only be used to help one get a better faith. Then when they get a better faith, a stronger faith, they move on to a "better" mass? I know plenty of people who have strong faith and they are plenty satisfied with the Mass, whether it be in the Traditional style or the Lifeteen style.

On a better note, I do agree that this is something that can make one like it based on how it makes us feel. But I disagree that this Mass is any less "good" than any other Mass out there. There can be more beautiful masses, depending on one's style, but a Catholic mass is a Catholic mass, period.

February 2, 2005

thanks, y'all. i'm not good with words, so i couldn't have said it better myself.

February 2, 2005

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Feb 2 2005, 01:32 AM'] i'll suggest that the quality has gone down a great deal.
If I never hear another song by David Haas or Marty Haugen, it'll be too soon. [/quote]
My point is, there is still good traditional Catholic music being written and the stuff you are referring to crept into Catholic circles more than twenty years ago. When I am critical of "modern" music used at Mass, I am not referring as much to a time period, as to a type. As far as David Haas and Marty Haugan (I would add Dan Schutte and his live in boyfriend, and the entire Oregon Catholic Press racket), they have done more to destroy sound liturgy by eroding people's tastes and Catholic sensibilities, where many now actually prefer the insipid sappy carp produced by these so-called musicians. Unfortunately the situation today is worse in this regard than it was twenty years ago because twenty years ago orthodox Catholics were still fighting for more traditional liturgical practices (especially in the realm of music), whereas today many have abandoned that road and embraced some of the most revolutionary liturgical practices and music that were clearly not envisioned by the fathers of the Second Vatican Council.

February 2, 2005

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Feb 2 2005, 02:39 AM'] Why is it a stepping stone? Why is it appropriate in forming the faith of teens but not adults? If it is not good enough for the adult community, then it shouldn't be good enough for the teenage community. You can't have it both ways. If it is a legit mass, and they have fixed their problems and the Pope has blessed it, then I can't see any reason why their is a problem with it. Again, the Church herself has been through some rough times, we've seen Pope committing all sorts of grave sins, and these were horribly wrong. Does this condemn the Papacy? I would think not. The Papacy had abuses that needed fixed. They were fixed, and we have(hopefully) moved on. Do we hold the current Pope accountable for actions committed in the past? Of course not. Why do you use a double standard with a practice within the Church, that has done much good in bringing people to the Church?

So, using the same logic, there is something at the heart of the Papacy that must be wrong? After all, they did some pretty bad stuff. What was the cause of those practices? Do they exist today in the Papacy? If not, then why do you use a double standard? [/quote]
Your metaphor does not work for the simple fact that you are referring to Popes who did evil things in the past. Those Popes have been dead for centuries. Of course we can't hold them accountable. We never really could, even when they were alive. It was for a subsequent Pope to sit in judgment of them.

Lifeteen, however, was founded in recent years. Its founder is still alive. Should he be accountable if he has mislead? If there is a problem within the founding of Lifeteen it can be addressed and corrected (and should be) because the founder is still here.

February 2, 2005

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Feb 2 2005, 04:20 AM'] So why make them "move on" to another church if they like this one? Is there something wrong with this mass? If there is I'd like to know. But the whole idea that this mass is simply a stepping stone only makes me believe that you all think it is not as good as any other mass, and should only be used to help one get a better faith. Then when they get a better faith, a stronger faith, they move on to a "better" mass? I know plenty of people who have strong faith and they are plenty satisfied with the Mass, whether it be in the Traditional style or the Lifeteen style.

[/quote]
Why move on? Because the style of lifeteen is flashy pop culture stuff. It is geared toward youth. The music appeals directly to the emotions. It is meant to get them interested (or at least that is how it is pitched). Emotions will eventually run dry. One's spiritual life becomes stagnant when one refuses to progress from spiritual youth to adulthood. This is universally true. Read any of the spiritual writers. When that happens, boredom sets in, and the most often the person falls away from the Church.

February 2, 2005

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Feb 2 2005, 02:39 AM'] and to what Toledo Jesus said:

So, using the same logic, there is something at the heart of the Papacy that must be wrong? After all, they did some pretty bad stuff. What was the cause of those practices? Do they exist today in the Papacy? If not, then why do you use a double standard? [/quote]
Every bad behavior has a cause. If we knew what made the bad popes bad, we could avoid men like the Medicis and the Borgheses when the cardinals select the pope. If you figure out the cause you prevent the problem. So if you figure out why lifeteen made their mistakes, then you can prevent them and maybe make the organization better...or shut it down if the need arises.
If what makes Lifeteen commit these abuses is ingrained, a fundamental attitude of innovation and disregard for the wisdom of the Church when it comes to the Mass, then that is a very serious, very subtle danger. One that most teens are just not equipped to realize.

February 2, 2005

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Feb 2 2005, 08:27 AM'] Why move on? Because the style of lifeteen is flashy pop culture stuff. It is geared toward youth. The music appeals directly to the emotions. It is meant to get them interested (or at least that is how it is pitched). Emotions will eventually run dry. One's spiritual life becomes stagnant when one refuses to progress from spiritual youth to adulthood. This is universally true. Read any of the spiritual writers. When that happens, boredom sets in, and the most often the person falls away from the Church. [/quote]
you are very correct that emotions do run out.....but that is not what Lifeteen is all about........at my parish we have meetings once a week that teach catechetics, how to live a daily walk with christ, and all that Jazz.....so i think it is pretty rediculous to say that it is all about the emotions........

It is supposed to get them interested......but its not like it all stops there........

i guess i am so for Lifeteen becasue if it wasnt for the "APPEAL" of it.... I wouldn't be WALKING THE ROAD WITH CHRIST THAT I AM......

February 2, 2005

[quote name='aloha918' date='Feb 2 2005, 11:41 AM'] i guess i am so for Lifeteen becasue if it wasnt for the "APPEAL" of it.... I wouldn't be WALKING THE ROAD WITH CHRIST THAT I AM...... [/quote]
this is not the first time this argument has been used.
it is very good that you are here and Catholic and if Lifeteen did anything to facilitate it then that's good. However, if you can't defend Lifeteen using reason instead of emotional appeals then we won't get anywhere.

February 2, 2005

As someone who came to the Church through LIFE TEEN and the people in it I have to say the following:

1. The liturgies are incredible experiences of bringing Eucharist alive. This is supported by the Vatican and at the highest levels.
2. The depth of the program, the liturgies, and the catechetics is completely up to the individuals involved. If a parish simply thinks that a "LIFE TEEN Mass" will bring up strong Catholics, then they will fail. However, I have seen first hand how an experience of Christ with the unchurched will bring them to a deeper desire to Christ. At its heart, the LIFE TEEN program would be the first to state that if you are going to mass for the music, the preaching, or anything but Christ, you need to develop yourself spiritually. This is done through a mentoring relationship with a young adult, youth minister, or priest to transmit the faith as taught by the apostles.

If there is a problem with bringing a ton of people to the Eucharist, then I am a problem. Perhaps the real problem is that we are afraid of what to do with people who have suddenly realized they have a hole in their hearts that begs for the truth of Christ.

Edited February 2, 2005 by randy_the_clown

February 2, 2005

[quote name='randy_the_clown' date='Feb 2 2005, 11:30 AM'] 1. The liturgies are incredible experiences of bringing Eucharist alive. This is supported by the Vatican and at the highest levels. [/quote]
I often hear people saying that Lifeteen is supported by the Vatican and the pope, but I've never seen any "proof" of this. Can anyone provide it? It seems as if the pope has approved Lifeteen then this is a dead argument. I've personally never seen anything like that though--even after contacting Lifeteen directly requesting the information.

February 2, 2005

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Feb 2 2005, 10:45 AM'] this is not the first time this argument has been used.
it is very good that you are here and Catholic and if Lifeteen did anything to facilitate it then that's good. However, if you can't defend Lifeteen using reason instead of emotional appeals then we won't get anywhere. [/quote]
it brings teenagers.......the youth of the church..........to christ......

that is a pretty good reason to me that Lifeteen is a good thing...........

February 2, 2005

Lifeteen is yet another example of the decay that is happening within the American Church. It, along with other things, is moving the Church in America closer to Protestantism then ever. Don't believe it? Then your heads are stuck further in the ground than you'll ever realize.

The Church in America is dying folks. Better wake up before it's too late.

February 2, 2005

[quote name='dUSt' date='Feb 2 2005, 11:59 AM'] I often hear people saying that Lifeteen is supported by the Vatican and the pope, but I've never seen any "proof" of this. Can anyone provide it? It seems as if the pope has approved Lifeteen then this is a dead argument. I've personally never seen anything like that though--even after contacting Lifeteen directly requesting the information. [/quote]
The proof is on thier Website. Though it they approve of Life Teen as an organization, Cardinal Arinze and the Bishop Olmsted of Pheonix had a HUGE PROBLEM WITH THE LITURGY AND CHANGED IT AS SOON AS THEY COULD BECAUSE IT CAUSED DISUNITY IN THE CHURCH AND SHOWED A LACK OF LITURGICAL KNOWLEDGE.

From my understanding Bishop Olmsted and Msgr. Dale Fushek went into a room with closed doors and when they came out three hours later the changes back to the way things should be were announced.

But Bishop Olmsted (and all who love the Church) loves life teen because it reaches teens bringing them to Christ. It is not meant to change the Liturgy (Any longer, and they stress that now). As long as the Lifeteen is a catechetical program and tryrant over the liturgy all is well.

Bishop Olemstad is the man, one of the most hardcore bishops in America, freind of and confidant to dUSt's favorite Cardinal.

By the way, dUSt if you want I can send you a copy of the tape in which the head of the Liturgy Commitee of the USCCB says he loves lifeteen, but that they need to stop doing things like crowding the Altar and altering the "Ita Misa Est". Also in the Video the Msgr that founded Lifeteen says that he wishes that these things did not have to change, but that for the sake of unity they should, and that is why he understand that they have to.

Edited February 2, 2005 by Theoketos

February 2, 2005

[quote]I often hear people saying that Lifeteen is supported by the Vatican and the pope, but I've never seen any "proof" of this. Can anyone provide it? It seems as if the pope has approved Lifeteen then this is a dead argument. I've personally never seen anything like that though--even after contacting Lifeteen directly requesting the information.[/quote]

Dust, in reply:

Last year, the conclusion of the submissions to the Vatican in regards to the LIFE TEEN liturgies and exemptions they requested of the GIRM. The Vatican, Cardinal Stafford, and the USCCB concluded that the changes that needed to be made to the liturgies included what was released by LIFE TEEN, who has always made public that they are in the service of the Church and operate in total obedience. The entirety of this statement can be found at lifeteen.com under the "press" section.

Of note, after watching hours of video tape and visits from Maloney, the representitive for liturgy for the USCCB, and observation from the new bishop in Phoenix, Bishop Olmstead (die-hard orthodox... awesome guy from what I have heard), it is worth noting that the music, homiletic style, and evangelistic and charismatic nature of the liturgy remained UNCHANGED.

There was also a statement from Cardinal Stafford (representive for lay movements in the Vatican) that LIFE TEEN was a movement that should be ENCOURAGED in the work that they do for the youth of the Church.

LIFE TEEN was established, under the authority of Bishop Olmstead and Cardinal Stafford as a Lay Association in the Catholic Church.

I think it is clear from all of this that the Vatican, the US Bishops, and every authority from there down has examined LIFE TEEN and the liturgies and found it to be a beneficial addition to the Catholic Church and the way that it serves the youth.

At the heart of the liturgy (any liturgy) is music, smells, visuals, tastes, and touches that entertain the senses. This can come in chant, which is pleasing to the ear, or in contemporary charismatic praise, which may be pleasing to another ear. The point is, you shall know a tree by its fruit. Has LIFE TEEN converted EVERY teen that walked through the doors? No. Has LIFE TEEN had a positive impact on the evangelization of youth in the church? I think even the skeptic has to say yes.

To those skeptics, I would simply say: what are you doing? How can you do it better? If you can, then DO IT! I think if an organization is serious about leading teens to Christ then they would be happy, no matter HOW it is done... so DO IT!

I hope that clears some things up, dUst. By the way... great site!

February 2, 2005

[quote name='mp15' date='Feb 2 2005, 12:07 PM'] Lifeteen is yet another example of the decay that is happening within the American Church. It, along with other things, is moving the Church in America closer to Protestantism then ever. Don't believe it? Then your heads are stuck further in the ground than you'll ever realize.

The Church in America is dying folks. Better wake up before it's too late. [/quote]
Yes that is exactly what it is doing........notice thge sarcasm

Moving towards Protestantism?.........you mean how it directly involves the Mass....brings teenagers into a greater relationship with the eucharist.....

And if the Church in America dies.....which i think is an obsured thought to begin with.....it is becasue there would be to many Catholic faithful (priests and layity) that dont reach out to the youth of the church.....which is exactly what Lifeteen does........

Edited February 2, 2005 by aloha918

February 2, 2005

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Feb 2 2005, 10:45 AM'] this is not the first time this argument has been used.
it is very good that you are here and Catholic and if Lifeteen did anything to facilitate it then that's good. However, if you can't defend Lifeteen using reason instead of emotional appeals then we won't get anywhere. [/quote]
And yet you fail to show why it is wrong.

February 2, 2005

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Feb 2 2005, 10:08 AM'] Every bad behavior has a cause. If we knew what made the bad popes bad, we could avoid men like the Medicis and the Borgheses when the cardinals select the pope. If you figure out the cause you prevent the problem. So if you figure out why lifeteen made their mistakes, then you can prevent them and maybe make the organization better...or shut it down if the need arises.
If what makes Lifeteen commit these abuses is ingrained, a fundamental attitude of innovation and disregard for the wisdom of the Church when it comes to the Mass, then that is a very serious, very subtle danger. One that most teens are just not equipped to realize. [/quote]
So obviously to you, Lifeteen hasn't fixed their problems? Because you don't have an issue with the papacy. What is Lifeteen doing that is wrong. That is all I want to know.

February 2, 2005

why is appealing to emotions a bad thing?.........

Lifeteen does MORE that just emotions.......but christ told us to go to him with the love of a child.......children love with their heart, with passion, and ,yes, with emotion.......

To really know christ i believe that you have to know him..........just like you know your best friend......you have to love him with emiotion.....

February 2, 2005

Can anyone provide me with any direct quotes from any of the bishops, cardinals or the pope that endorses Lifeteen? That's really all I'm looking for. It's been stated that it exists, I would just like to see it. Seriously.

February 2, 2005

[quote]Yes that is exactly what it is doing........notice thge sarcasm[/quote]

Yep, head stuck in the sand.

[quote]Moving towards Protestantism?.........you mean how it directly involves the Mass....brings teenagers into a greater relationship with the eucharist.....[/quote]

And why is it that teens need something special for them to get closer to Christ? Why is it that only American teens need something special? Why not the rest of the world as well? Is it mabey because American teens are a little shallow? If it doesn't make them "feel" good then we will lose them from the faith? Maybe instead of changing the Church we should start by changing American culture and family values.

[quote]And if the Church in America dies.....which i think is an obsured thought to begin with.....it is becasue there would be to many Catholic faithful (priests and layity) that dont reach out to the youth of the church.....which is exactly what Lifeteen does........[/quote]

Think it obsurd all you want, still doesn't change the fact that it is happening. All I got to say is that if the current wave of youth is the future of the Church then God help us all. In your world, there will be an awfull lot of us older traditional types left out in the cold.

Edited February 2, 2005 by mp15

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